PrerYDoG

I have a new 951 S now since the death of my 88 951. When I bought my 88 951, I was told that suspension upgrades had been done, namely koni-yellows, but wasn't told anything else, just that it was beefy. Well, now that I have my 951S I realize how beefy the suspension was on my last car.

Basically, what I want is what I had. The car was lower (especially in the rear), and the car was MUCH MUCH stiffer. You could put your weight into any of the 4 corners of the car, and it would not budge towards the ground. However on my 951S (with suppossedly a beefy setup from factory), it is higher, and while the front end is pretty stiff, the rear end will go down big time (you can even feel the rear end "squat" under heavy accelleration). My last car would barely dive under hard hard braking, and never squatted on acceleration. That is what I want (need!).

Now my question...how do I get this? I know the factory system on the 951S is "adjustable". What the hell does that mean? Can I get what I want out of the current setup? Can I get close? I want to first go as far as I can factory before I start buying stuff. Any help would be appreciated.


Mark

P.S. - I will probably not be doing the suspension work myself, but I want to know what to ask for when I take it to my mechanic. I, for one, do not want a shock to go through my thick skull.

IanM

Hit the search button, and look at all the posts regarding suspension upgrades. This is a popular topic. You've got lots of options. Talk to Jason at Paragon, they'll sell you whatever you need. You might want to consider bigger swaybars (Weltmeister or Cup car), 250-300# front springs, getting your Koni yellow revalved, 28mm torsion bars in the back, or stock torsion bars and helper springs.

adrial

To simply lower a turbo S (or '89 turbo) you have to adjust the threaded collars up front and play with the eccentric on the torsion bars in the rear.

To stiffen...well you need stiffer torsion bars and stiffer springs...possibly new shocks depending on just how stiff you go.

Like the previous poster said...search the archives, you'll find a lot of info.

PrerYDoG

I was under the impression that the TurboS Koni's were adjustable for stiffness. My front ones are anyway, and they seem to be the stiffness that I desire (from what I can tell at this point), but the rears are not nearly stiff enough. I know the fronts are adjustable for stiffness, is this the case or not with the rear ones?


Mark

adrial

Rear's are also adjustable for stifness if they're the stock shocks. I think stock equipment was yellow koni's? I'm not sure though.

The turbo S koni's up front are adjustable for stifness..It could be that your rear shocks are just worn...

Skip

The rears should be Konis and are adjustable for rebound only. They must be removed from the car to make this change.

Here's a Tech-session link to help you out (check the end of the page):

Koni Adjustment Procedures

Good Luck!

PrerYDoG

How much lower will messing with the torsion bars on the rear take me? I'm hoping to get about 1 1/2 to 2" out of it.

What's a good source for stiffer springs and torsion bars? I've seen install proceedures for torsion bars, but what's it like changing out springs on one of these?

Thanks

Skip

By "messing with the Torsion bars", you mean indexing them, then you slam the car to the ground if desired (though not recommended). If you mean by adjusting the spring plate eccentric, then at max it's ~3/4" (depends on where it is now). Here's a link to that procedure: 944 Rear Ride Height

To get over 1" will take indexing the torsion bars. Here's a link to that procedure: 944 Torsion Bar Replacement

Changing out the front springs is far less complicated. Here's a link to that procedure: 944 Strut & Spring Replacement

For most 944's the choices for spring swaps are many, but for your car it's easy to narrow down. You already have Koni sports (though they may be due for service?) and adjustable ride height (your stock spring is ~160#). You can find a set of used *Cup* springs (~160-410# progressive) or you can use an adapter to allow the use of the more popular 2.5" ID springs. With 2.5" springs, your rates are near limitless... for instance, we carry a line of srpings from 100-1000# in either 10" or 12" free lengths.

The torsion bars are equally as available, from 27-31mm (your stock T-bars are 25.5mm). The only real choice there is solid or hollow. The solid are heavier, yet less expensive. An addition option to stiffen the rear is the addition or substitution of coil-overs. For stock parts, the 968 M030 used a coil-over rear and linear 200# spring... the 951 Cup cars had an adjustable ride height coil-over with a progressive spring (both of these setups are rare finds used). For aftermarket there are many choices. You can ask more of this if interested.

Good Luck!

PrerYDoG

Skip - you're a wealth of knowledge, wish I could give you you're 5th star back

Anyway, I've been reading your site and a couple things came up. First, I can't find rear Torsion bars on your site, do you have a price list for these?

Second: Under the Weltmeister spring section it says I cannot upgrade my springs on the stock front struts, does this mean I have to upgrade the TS to front coil overs in order to get a better spring rate in the front? You mention an adapter to allow for different springs, where can I find one of these at?

Sorry if these seem like basic questions, but I've always been an "engine man", and never r ealized how important the suspension was on these things until moving from my old car (which was already very sturdily set up) to my new car (which is "loose" to say the least).

Skip

Mr. Dog: Stars are hot and pointy, so I'd probably just hurt myself with them... thanks anyway

Torsion Bars: look in the 944>suspension part of the catalog... click "Next 15 items" at the bottom of the page. Or, enter "944torsion" in the search on the storefront. Or, click the image :



The Weltmeister springs are only for standard struts. The 951S uses a smaller lower ID spring, as does the S2 and 968 (but different again). Your options as stated above are: stock M030 spring, Cup spring, or 2.5" ID spring with adapter. The adapter is not on the site yet, you would have to call 800-200-9366 on Monday (as I *try* to avoid $-talk on this forum). They are inexpensive. This option will allow you to choose whatever rate you like up to 1000#.

Skip

PrerYDoG

OKay, I feel stupid. I never even saw the "Next 15 Items". So if I decide to keep the Koni's all around (which I may need to replace, I'll find that out soon), I can put 300# springs up front (which will lower the car?) with an adapter, and then replace the rear torsion bars with hollow sway bars (28mm correspondes to 300# correct?) and lower the rear, and this should give me the "low" car with little to no dive under braking and little to no squat under heavy acceleration?


Thanks

Skip

Yes and no...

Yes, you can use 300# springs with the adapter to convert your struts to accept 2.5" ID springs (probably 10" free length). You can certainly lower, and even raise the ride height with your front strut sleeves.

A 28mm Torsion bar is 254# effective (29 = 292, 30 = 335) Click Here for more on this. *NOTE* - most, if not all, torsion bars are advertised and expressed in effective diameters for math purposes... even if the actual diameter is larger or smaller.

"Never says never". The only thing that will produce "no" dive or squat is absurdley high spring rates or limiting the suspension (via welding methinks). This WILL significantly reduce the dive and squat.

Skip

Danno

There's also nothing wrong with the dive and squat when driving the car. It can actually make you faster because these are signs the car gives to indicate how it's working. Being finely tuned to the signals the car gives will allow you to improve as a driver.

I remember an article about 10-years ago with the Lotus active-suspension cars. By removing all squat and dive from their cars, they found that the drivers were making more mistakes.

People were locking up their brakes because they couldn't tell how hard they were braking with zero dive. We eventually learn the behavior of our cars and can subconsciously "sense" the braking limits based upon the feel of the car's dive, the brake-pedal effort and our ears.

Also having suspension compliance so the car squats actually gives you better acceleration. A stiff rear end with hard springs and stiff shocks allows the wheels to break loose easier under acceleration (especially when you hit surface irregularities).

That said, a lot of the professional teams actually run a very stiff front suspension with a soft back end to maximize drive traction.

PrerYDoG

Those are good points Danno, some of which I did not realize. But the car I learned on (and spent a year and a half learning on) did not have the dive/sqaut "problem". (I call it a problem, because to me, it is normal NOT to have this happen, to others, it is a normality). I feel weird getting on the boost and feeling my *** slip further towards the ground, or braking hard and watching the front in dive. To me, that's not normal after being without that for a year and a half.

Though, I do not think I will ever have a car that compares to what I had. Funny how absence makes the heart grow fonder? Or maybe something like that. Whatever it is, I know that I want my new car to be like the old one, because that's what I'm used to, and know how to drive. I just wish I knew what was on my old cars suspension so I could duplicate it.

On a side note, the first time I ever drove a clutch was when I bought my first 951 and had to drive it from Rochester NY to Harrisonburg VA.



Mark