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924/931/944/951/968 Forum Porsche 924, 924S, 931, 944, 944S, 944S2, 951, and 968 discussion, how-to guides, and technical help. (1976-1995)
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ProTrac Dampers vs. MOTON vs. JRZ vs. LEDA

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Old 11-16-2001, 01:44 PM
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Jason @ Paragon Products
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Nicolas, the 944S2 and 968 head gasket set is the same except the 968 kit should have 4 928.104.443.08 cam plug gaskets. If we somehow failed to include those in your order I apologize. I will expedite shipment...just let me know.Paragon Products jason@paragon-products.com
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Old 11-16-2001, 02:44 PM
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belz
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Nicolas ... thanks for your insight. Question(s): where do you have your front "cans" mounted? If they are in the engine bay doesn't that negate the "heat" arguement?
Do you race your car? If so, realistically, how easy is it to "tune" the dampers, i.e. for different tracks, weather, tires etc?
The basis of my question is: If all I'm going to do is find the single best set up for my car and never, or infrequently, adjust anything... then I've blown alot of money and the need for all the adjustability is questionable.
I've talked to alot of guys with JRZ/MOTON on their cars and they don't ever change anything once they, or someone else, finds the "right" setting.
CAN THE AVERAGE CLUB RACER REALLY BENEFIT FROM THE RANGE OF ADJUSTABILITY WITH THESE DAMPERS OR ARE WE BETTER OFF WITH GETTING THE CAR CLOSE AND LIMITED ADJUSTABILITY?
Damn ...maybe ignorance is bliss .....
Old 11-16-2001, 03:03 PM
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belz
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Skip (or anyone) .... can KONIs be serviced locally? Or do they need to be sent "somewhere" to be revalved and rebuilt.
I would like to have the ability to work with someone locally (Shock Shop, Portland)with a damper dyno and not have to send my dampers off everytime I need/want service.
Also ... how often would the KONIs need a rebuild?
Old 11-16-2001, 04:05 PM
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Skip
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Wink

Koni's are lifetime shocks, and should never need a rebuild... if they do, or you need to revalve: Authorized Koni rebuild centers that I know of:

Koni NA - Hebron , KY
Truechoice - Hilliard, OH

No idea if other shops with dyno's could do it, or if the parts would be available to them if they tried.

Skip
Old 11-16-2001, 04:20 PM
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Steve Lavigne
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Originally posted by Skip:
<STRONG>Nicolas: Just to clarify, we are talking about the Koni 2812 and 2817 applications for the 944/951/968. These are strictly race dampers.
</STRONG>
Originally posted by Skip:
<STRONG>Koni's are lifetime shocks, and should never need a rebuild... if they do, or you need to revalve: Authorized Koni rebuild centers that I know of:
Koni NA - Hebron , KY
Truechoice - Hilliard, OH

No idea if other shops with dyno's could do it, or if the parts would be available to them if they tried.
</STRONG>
I think "race dampers" and "never rebuild" are a total contradiction. If you put these dampers on a shock dyno, ran them 5000 race miles, and put them on a dyno again, I don't think you would get the same results.

Care to prove me wrong?

-Steve
Old 11-16-2001, 04:31 PM
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belz
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Originally posted by Steve Lavigne:
<STRONG>

I think "race dampers" and "never rebuild" are a total contradiction. If you put these dampers on a shock dyno, ran them 5000 race miles, and put them on a dyno again, I don't think you would get the same results.

Care to prove me wrong?
-Steve</STRONG>
Steve ...
I'd have to agree. The Bilstein "cup" suspension is also supposed to be "lifetime" as are Bilstein street products. If this is true why do they (Bilstein Motorsports) offer rebuilding services? Hmmmmm
Old 11-16-2001, 04:35 PM
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To my point about whether or not the average club racer would utilize the adjustability range. The quote is from the guy who runs "TracQuest" ... granted not racing but still an enthusiast supreme:

""I now have the double adjustable JRZ's; I traded up when my single adjustables were determined to be defective and were to be replaced under warranty by JRZ. My pressures are set at 190-100 psi, and they don't lose much pressure at all. Also, measuring shouldn't cause them to lose 25 pounds. Either there's something wrong with your gauge, or you need someone to show you how to do it properly. When Alarcon uses his gauge, hardly any pressure is lost at all.

Re the adjustment, mine are set conservately at 6 and 4 (also out of 14) for the street and track. I'm guessing I could get better performance at the track if I stiffened them up, but I'm too lazy to figure it out and move them back for the street. I would like to try it, though.""


Old 11-16-2001, 05:08 PM
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Care to prove me wrong?
No, but thanks for the offer.

Skip
Old 11-16-2001, 05:23 PM
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Nicolas
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Cool

My JRZ are mounted in front of the airbox so there is no heating problem (on a 968)

My opinion is that triple adjustable are really nice for the front end :
- the difference of 1 or 2 click on the top **** really make difference over bumps (bad surface) and wet road
- the medium range **** is one shot adjustement if you are not a top racer looking for the last 1/100 of sec idem for the rebound nut that I am not really switching a lot ( except really bad road and rainy situation)

For the rear I think that the JRZ triple are only for the super racer...as they are really difficult to mount and really unuseable with the torsion bar:
- just before running my car at Dijon-Prenois track I have made an alignment ...it has changed completly the corner weight of the car and it was impossible to readjust quickly the ride height , the car became undriveable under the rain...
So I decided to switch to complete coil over and it has become a different car.

I want to switch the car for track only use ..
but as I know myself I will still use time by time on open road (...it is a good for nerves...)

In my opinion invest your money in other accesories like bushing - camber plate- good sway bar-big brakes and of course good slick tyres and you will have a trouble free , fast car that could surprise a lot of 911 even 964 and 993 ( the braking is really great on 944/968 and driving on wet road is really fun)

my other personnal advise is to not go with really high spring rates ( over 450 lbs) as your car will be very stiff and then you will need to have really good shocks always in good working order ( stock rate are around 150 lbs for a 968 ) and drive the car on formula 1 like track without any bumps.
Old 11-16-2001, 06:55 PM
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belz
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OK SKIP ... I can't stand it any longer!
I know the final pricing for the Koni's have not been worked out but can we talk range?
For the set (no springs etc.)Just 4 dampers
are we close to:
1)$2,000 +
2)$2,500 +/-
3)$3,000 +/-
4)$3,500 +/-
5)$3,500 +

Please don't hold out on me here!!!!!!!!!!
Oh buddy 'ol buddy 'ol pal
Old 11-16-2001, 07:08 PM
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Belz, the 2817/2812 shocks for the 944 will definitely fall into the 5 category...at least once you add springs, adapters etc. With regard to rebuild, I think Skip was referring mainly to the Koni street shocks which generally don't need to be rebuilt during the normal life of a shock. The 2817/2812 can be revalved which would probably be the better term to use with regard to a race damper. The do have a large range of adjustment but if for some reason the customer wants to change valving, additional parts will be available.Paragon Products jason@paragon-products.com
Old 11-16-2001, 07:22 PM
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belz
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Talking

Thank You Skip and Jason!
Old 11-16-2001, 09:18 PM
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belz
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OK, Next Question:
Regarding 944 installation: What do you use to mount the top of the rear racing shock with spherical bearings? Is there a trick spacer(s)available? I hope there is something more sophisticated than stacking washers ...
I'm familiar with the Racers Edge adapters for the lower mount but what about the upper?
Old 11-16-2001, 10:42 PM
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Not sure I'll be able to find that out until Monday... be sure the solution will NOT be a stack of washers though.

Skip
Old 11-17-2001, 02:50 PM
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OK KONI guys ...
1) What is the real difference between the 2812 MK II and the 2812 MK I (shock), besides price?
2) Are the differences worth the corresponding increase in price?
3) The 28 Series that Paragon has been working on ... are they the MK I or the MK II?
4) Does KONI make a 2817 MK II (strut)?
5) If not now... are they working on one?
I know ... I know ... lots of questions!!!!



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