2.7 Million Miles and still runs great!
12-30-2011, 06:02 PM
#31
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Volvos are good cars, and when I worked at a Volvo dealer, the owners were die hards. They wouldn't blink an eye spending $1000 for a 30k service 15 years ago (the 30k was plugs, lof, cleaning fuses, snake oil cleanings and tire maint) 1500-2000 for a 60k, which added trans service, coolant drain and diff svc. + brakes, water pumps and timing belts. The way I see it, is the Volvo was usually the wife's car and the husband would lay down and buy everything; the Porsche was the husband's toy and too much money spent on it was frowned upon. (Based loosely on owners 1-8b listed above).
12-30-2011, 07:23 PM
#32
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I agree on the handling portion with Luis, however SAAB's come now. I used to work at a Volvo-Saab repair shop and both are great, however the 8 valve 4 cylinder volvos would never ever give a problem Period.
12-30-2011, 07:39 PM
#33
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My sister had a 900S...it was a good car but not as 'carved from a block of scandinavian ice' strong as my 142E. Handling was not bad if you could stay in the seat with all that body roll !
12-31-2011, 03:37 PM
#34
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lets hear from the million mile 944 owner before deciding which is beter. Oh, wait, no 944 has made it to a million yet and Irv probably pase thee million by now.
Irs lives in Suffolk County which has snow and salt. I have a book on volvos first 50 years with the page dedicated to Irv signed by Irv. a co worker when I lived in NY is friends with the owner of a volvo dealership and gave me the book. Irv is a local celebrity in volvo circles in NY and possibly elsewhere. He takes care of his car and it takes care of him. what more can one want?
Irs lives in Suffolk County which has snow and salt. I have a book on volvos first 50 years with the page dedicated to Irv signed by Irv. a co worker when I lived in NY is friends with the owner of a volvo dealership and gave me the book. Irv is a local celebrity in volvo circles in NY and possibly elsewhere. He takes care of his car and it takes care of him. what more can one want?
12-31-2011, 04:18 PM
#35
Drifting
Thread Starter
12-31-2011, 08:05 PM
#36
Drifting
2.7 million miles...
There was a recent piece on him in, I think, Classic Motorsports, and he is a retired teacher who regularly drives long distances. IIRC, he parks his P1800 outside.
01-01-2012, 01:22 PM
#37
Drifting
When I first saw the P1800 I thought it was the best looking sports GT I'd ever seen, in it's price category. The reputation for Volvo reliability and longevity was legendary. A 2 year tour in Vietnam and then off to higher learning sent me an another direction. When the 944 came out I couldn't wait to take a test drive. That, then, became the prettiest sports GT I ever saw. The flared fenders and the handling really got to me. Couldn't afford the price then but in later years I managed to afford one. Now on my third and having become very experienced in all things mechanical about the 944, I love it even more. I wonder if the P1800 had issues with rubber engine seals hardening to plastic over the years like the 944.
01-02-2012, 08:50 PM
#38
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I disagree. I've owned my 944 for 7 years and rebuilt almost everything in it. It has had countless miles and many brutal owners before me (spent these 7 years fixing their mistakes!)
I know the car very well, and it is not built with as much longevity in mind as some of those 1960's cars. Lets start with the fact that the bores are Alusil. Sorry, Alusil it great stuff for a sports car, but you don't see any Peterbuilt trucks logging 100k's of miles with Alusil engines. They use cast iron - and the bottom line is - cast iron on steel piston rings just lasts longer. They should have sleeved the aluminum block.
Then there's that Audi ring and pinion in the transmission - it uses tapered roller bearings and no thrust bearing (unlike real Porsche gearboxes!) and thus requires shimming to keep the lash correct. The bottom line is those engineers could not have possibly had longevity in mind when using a tapered bearing with shims. They were simply cutting the costs of extra bearings! Should have used thrust bearings.
Then there's that rubber isolated clutch where even if the clutch has little miles, the rubber will crack and fail with age / heat cycles and require removal of the transaxle to replace. What a half assed design and a pain in everyones ***!! They finally got it right with the split bell housing in the 968, where I don't have to remove the TT/transaxle. They could have done a lot of things to facilitate clutch service than they did.
Then there's the power steering system - notoriously shoddy, mainly because the sealing surfaces should have been chromed, and in the 60's - they were!! These are just polished steel - they scratch, they rust and pit - never seal again - squirt fluid everywhere. The pumps (compared to most Zuffenhausens at least) are not that good either.
Oh boy, then there's that A/C unit. You know... the one full of Mitsubishi and Hitachi parts, with a Denso based compressor and wiring / controls from Bosch shoved on top - yeah - that never worked so well in anyones car did it? Honestly - some people have good luck - but most of us cannot afford to constantly troubleshoot our A/C systems and choose to drive without it. Should have used a GERMAN compressor/evaporator with that Bosch equipped Porsche - not Japanese.
Oh wait - then there's the timing belt / water pump / oil pump conundrum. The oil pump should have been keyed to the crankshaft. Not doing that is just asking for trouble. The oil pickup cracks, cavitates, and #2 rod bearings frequently go out - throwing shrapnel to the other bearings. Maybe they should have done a little better than chopping the 5.0L 928 motor in half no?!! The timing belt tension design is poor, and doesnt facilitate longevity of the belts resulting in early engine failure. Nowadays much better systems exist - but even back then there were better designs available to Stuttgart.
Oh yeah - and that waterpump, where we run steel bolts through an aluminum pump housing and into an aluminum block, with coolant flowing over them. Gee - why do you think those bolts come out so rusty? Sometimes they just snap, forcing you to use an easyout, and a helicoil on your block.
Bottom line, the 944 is a great looking, great driving, cheap Porsche - but it was NOT built for longevity. Go take a look at a Peterbuilt. That Volvo was built like a Peterbuilt!
I know the car very well, and it is not built with as much longevity in mind as some of those 1960's cars. Lets start with the fact that the bores are Alusil. Sorry, Alusil it great stuff for a sports car, but you don't see any Peterbuilt trucks logging 100k's of miles with Alusil engines. They use cast iron - and the bottom line is - cast iron on steel piston rings just lasts longer. They should have sleeved the aluminum block.
Then there's that Audi ring and pinion in the transmission - it uses tapered roller bearings and no thrust bearing (unlike real Porsche gearboxes!) and thus requires shimming to keep the lash correct. The bottom line is those engineers could not have possibly had longevity in mind when using a tapered bearing with shims. They were simply cutting the costs of extra bearings! Should have used thrust bearings.
Then there's that rubber isolated clutch where even if the clutch has little miles, the rubber will crack and fail with age / heat cycles and require removal of the transaxle to replace. What a half assed design and a pain in everyones ***!! They finally got it right with the split bell housing in the 968, where I don't have to remove the TT/transaxle. They could have done a lot of things to facilitate clutch service than they did.
Then there's the power steering system - notoriously shoddy, mainly because the sealing surfaces should have been chromed, and in the 60's - they were!! These are just polished steel - they scratch, they rust and pit - never seal again - squirt fluid everywhere. The pumps (compared to most Zuffenhausens at least) are not that good either.
Oh boy, then there's that A/C unit. You know... the one full of Mitsubishi and Hitachi parts, with a Denso based compressor and wiring / controls from Bosch shoved on top - yeah - that never worked so well in anyones car did it? Honestly - some people have good luck - but most of us cannot afford to constantly troubleshoot our A/C systems and choose to drive without it. Should have used a GERMAN compressor/evaporator with that Bosch equipped Porsche - not Japanese.
Oh wait - then there's the timing belt / water pump / oil pump conundrum. The oil pump should have been keyed to the crankshaft. Not doing that is just asking for trouble. The oil pickup cracks, cavitates, and #2 rod bearings frequently go out - throwing shrapnel to the other bearings. Maybe they should have done a little better than chopping the 5.0L 928 motor in half no?!! The timing belt tension design is poor, and doesnt facilitate longevity of the belts resulting in early engine failure. Nowadays much better systems exist - but even back then there were better designs available to Stuttgart.
Oh yeah - and that waterpump, where we run steel bolts through an aluminum pump housing and into an aluminum block, with coolant flowing over them. Gee - why do you think those bolts come out so rusty? Sometimes they just snap, forcing you to use an easyout, and a helicoil on your block.
Bottom line, the 944 is a great looking, great driving, cheap Porsche - but it was NOT built for longevity. Go take a look at a Peterbuilt. That Volvo was built like a Peterbuilt!
On the engines, while you are correct that all Diesel engines use iron sleeves, this isn't necessarily a knock on the Alusil blocks in the 944. How many guys are opening up 100k+ engines and seeing that the bores are in great shape, ready for another 100K? How many spec racers were taking junkyard motors, re-ringing and going racing for seasons? The Alusil block is great for longevity, especially in the 944 which doesn't make a lot of power. Diesel engines are sleeved because this reduces maintainance costs on rebuilds and on an engine with combustion pressures like a diesel, an alusil bore would not hold up as well. But the 944 has nowhere near the combustion pressures.
On the ring & pinion, a lot of people replace with the wrong fluid (Redline MT-90 is not GL-5 rated but is a forum favorite) but the torque tube bearings wear out much faster than any bearings in the trans do.
All the problems you are citing (oil pump, water pump, oil pickup) aren't problems unless the car is tracked FREQUENTLY. If the 944 wasn't a tracked car we probably would NEVER hear of oil pickup fractures, fuel rail fractures, control arm fractures, wheel hub fractures, ect.
How would you change the timing belt setup? After all technical service bulletins are performed I don't see any issues. Why the belts can't go 90k is probably again because you are driving a Porsche, not a Honda. Drive the Porsche like a Honda and you will see Honda like maintenance intervals.
Rubber centered clutch - well again Porsche was designing for longevity here believe it or not - increasing the longevity of the thrust bearings and soaking up some torsional vibrations inherent in an inline 4. I just changed one on an '84 with well over 100K - not bad for 28 years! Most of the bad rap these have gotten come from abusive drivers. I know of a rubber centered clutch that had 40k hard street miles and 30+ track days on it and the friction surface wasn't even fully seated when it came out (due to engine rebuild) -but the guy was as good with a manual trans as I've ever ridden with.
01-02-2012, 11:53 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
mine only lasted 88k miles and was installed in the fall of '93...yep, that's a horrible issue...
01-03-2012, 06:58 PM
#40
Burning Brakes
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Well all good points - the 944 is a sports car, and comparing it to a Peterbuilt truck is like apples to oranges. BUT the Volvo's are actually built a lot like Peterbuilts where the 944's are not. I suppose that was the point I am trying to make.
Compared to most cars of the 1980's the 944 (and all of Porsche's lineup except 928's :P) are a JOY to work on. They are (including the 928) well built sports cars. But you won't see any motors crossing the 1million mile point.
As to the person commenting about cadmium plated bolts in the water pump and York compressors - you're wrong on both counts. The York compressor has historically been the superior unit. I have one in my 1969 Lincoln that to this day has never failed.
No bolts in the 944 were cadmium plated. They are yellow zinc coated - the zinc being a sacrificial anti-corrosion coating. Cadmium is toxic to you - and was rarely used in any car. It was used a lot on airplanes though!
The rubber centered clutch still escapes me. What was wrong with the spring centered clutch again? And how come nobody buys rubber centered clutches anymore?
There are better ways to have done the timing belt - like using a tensioner setup similar to that on the 928 on the 944. OR even better - like the one on the Volvo's! >_>
Compared to most cars of the 1980's the 944 (and all of Porsche's lineup except 928's :P) are a JOY to work on. They are (including the 928) well built sports cars. But you won't see any motors crossing the 1million mile point.
As to the person commenting about cadmium plated bolts in the water pump and York compressors - you're wrong on both counts. The York compressor has historically been the superior unit. I have one in my 1969 Lincoln that to this day has never failed.
No bolts in the 944 were cadmium plated. They are yellow zinc coated - the zinc being a sacrificial anti-corrosion coating. Cadmium is toxic to you - and was rarely used in any car. It was used a lot on airplanes though!
The rubber centered clutch still escapes me. What was wrong with the spring centered clutch again? And how come nobody buys rubber centered clutches anymore?
There are better ways to have done the timing belt - like using a tensioner setup similar to that on the 928 on the 944. OR even better - like the one on the Volvo's! >_>
01-03-2012, 07:52 PM
#41
Drifting
Thread Starter
Just because someone hasn't driven one that far and posted on a forum dos not mean it can't be done.
I have met a guy with over 850,000 miles on a 356 Convertable.....since he rebuilt it!! So who knows what it had on it before he got it?
I've seen other threads about 300-500k Porsches all over the place.
