bebbetufs

Thanks. What type of damage do you think I should look for?

Regarding over torquing: I have spoken to several engineers about this and we all agree that over torquing will not damage this kind of gasket. It may stretch the bolts and threads, weakening them, or it may compress the inserts ever so slightly, but the amount of compression is not enough to affect the gasket in any way. We are talking 100ths. of a miilimiter at the most. The gasket is simply not made to such tolerances and hence will not be affected by them.

I'm not saying that over torquing is good, it will damage bolts and or threaded holes, but it will not cause the gasket to tear or pop, unless the torque is not enough to clamp the inserts between the block and the pan, leaving it resting on the rubber gasket only. Only in this case will torque have a massive effect on the gasket itself. As the gasket dries up and ages the bolts are likely to come loose if installed in this fashion, so to make sure they don't come loose they are streched. The inserts provide a solid connection between block and pan to stretch against.

Duke

Over torquing most likely crack the pan (thin casting around the thread) or the bolt. Can't see how the gasket inserts could be affected to create this problem.

M758

Are the surfaces perfectly flat or is there a scrap or glue being pressed in there and damaging the gasket?

bebbetufs

The surfaces have been thoroughly cleaned in stages with various solvents invcluding alcohol and acetone. Some sections have been very lightly sanded with emerald paper to get rid of hard-to-remove residue.

I'dont know if the block mating surface is flat, but the bores were perfect when I rebuilt the engine so I have no reason to believe the block is damaged. I do not have a perfectly flat surface to test the pan on in my garage, but I made a deal to take it to one which is accurate down to 1-1000th of a millimetre to test it once I remove it. Are there other ways to check for flatness?

Also. Do you think i should roughen the flanges before installing the gasket? To give them more grip to hold the gasket in place as it is torqued down?

Do you have any tricks to keep oil from seeping down from the block and contaminating the mating surfaces as the gasket sets in place?

M758

Hmm,,
Are you sure the pan gasket is in fact leaking? If the front seals are leaking it can flow back on the pan edge.

bebbetufs

The short answer is. No. I am convinced it is leaking in the rear corner based on the tears in the gaskets from previous attempts. However, when it comes to the front it is more unclear. The o-ring on the lower balance shaft bearing may be suspected as well. I was unable to avoid getting a tiny overlap where the Balance Shaft cover mates with the block to form the bore for the bearing o ring. This join may have caused a leak.

I have been drowned in work today, but I will take a good look tomorrow.

968 GUY

Aren't the inserts there to prevent the gasket from getting "squished" down too far?
I would say the inserts are twisting and tearing the gasket.

never mind about the twisting, I actually took a second to think about that.

bebbetufs

UPDATE:
It seems like this leak is not actually down to the awful oil pan gasket, but rather because of a leak from the lower balance shaft cover. I spent an hour under the car today and was able to isolate the leak to this area. I'm still not happy with the way the gasket is bulging in the rear, but at least it is not leaking yet so I will run it like it is and inspect on regular intervals.

Thanks for helping me widen my search.

mytrplseven

I have been watching this project for a long time and I'm pleased to see you've reached a positive resolution. I'm heading down the same road soon but I'm thinking of pulling the motor and going from front to back and re-do everything. Car has 121k miles and I want to be certain that EVERYTHING is fixed before it needs fixing. Preventative maintenance. I have no dependable history on engine maintenance so just to be sure, do it all.

bebbetufs

It's back and it's worse than ever. I've done 100km and the gasket has popped in several places and is now leaking a lot more. I did manage to stop one leak coming from the balance shaft front o-ring, but there can be no doubt that the gasket has to come off again Looks like I'm going to lose out on three seasons in a row.


Problem is I can't figure out what I'm doing wrong. I've been through every scenario and every solution. I will buy some Silastic, that's for sure, but others have managed without....

Could it be that there is some residue of something left on the block which acts like a lubricant? What cleaning agents do you use?

I have installed a set of crank scrapers, as have many others. Are there any known issues with these causing pressure waves that can pop the gasket?

M758

One possiblility is that you are pressurizing the crankcase due a bad ring. I once had a motor that liked to leak oil even after replacing seals that I eventually learned had a cracked ring. The problem was combuston pressure was getting into the crankcase and pushing oil out any place it could go.

bebbetufs

Thanks for trying to help me out.

I have checked the compression and done a leak down test. Also sent oil to Black Stone labs for analysis and they found now traces of fuel or hints of blow by. Also checked the dip stick by holding a sheet of paper across the tube. There is no pressure, only vacuum. If this is a pressure related problem it must be very localized because the crank case itself is not pressurized.

austin944

I kind of wonder when you did the sanding, if you removed the machining marks that another poster observed.

I found this info, not sure how relevant it is here:

bebbetufs

Thanks! I will definitely look into that when the pan is off again.
I found the leak however. The oil pump is leaking where it is glued to the block. This high pressure oil is running straight onto the gasket making it look like the gasket has leaking. It is also lubricating the gasket causing it to creep.

I finally found the leak by completely wiping off all oil residue with a series of solvents, and then blowing a light coating of talcum powder on the surfaces. This made it extremely easy to spot the leak and trace it to the source. It also made it completely obvious that the gasket itself is not leaking this time.

mytrplseven

halleluya! Very enginous about the Talc.