Spring rates and comfort vs performance
05-29-2003, 11:09 PM
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Drifting
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Spring rates and comfort vs performance
Ok well I think I'm ready to move up to some new suspension pieces on the S2. Right now it's running
Koni Yellow Adjustables on all 4 corners
Weltmeister 200# Spring up front
Stock Torsion bars
Right now my shocks are set at full stiff which is a rather jarring ride, I don't mind it much but some people who ride with me do. Now I've recently ridden in an 89 Turbo with 300# Springs up front and 28mm torsion bars in the rear. His shocks are set about half stiff, and it's a MUCH softer ride even with the stiffer springs. And it's tighter in the corners.
What I'm considering because of that is possibly instead of going with the 300#/28mm is possible 350#/29mm or something like that. I'd like to keep the spring rate ratio the same a sthe 200#/whatever the stock S2 torsion bars are because right now the car handles perfectly neutral and it's great on the track, so I'd like to keep it close to that.
What are your experiences with the optimal spring rates and would it be a huge difference in harshness from the 300# to 350#? Because I could definately deal with stiffer than it was at 300# and half soft shocks. I'd like to back my shocks down to about half too as stiffer springs are less harsh than stiff shocks! And it'll handle a lot better.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I'm hoping to get this done sometime this summer before my next DE so I have some time to get used to it before I try it on the track.
Koni Yellow Adjustables on all 4 corners
Weltmeister 200# Spring up front
Stock Torsion bars
Right now my shocks are set at full stiff which is a rather jarring ride, I don't mind it much but some people who ride with me do. Now I've recently ridden in an 89 Turbo with 300# Springs up front and 28mm torsion bars in the rear. His shocks are set about half stiff, and it's a MUCH softer ride even with the stiffer springs. And it's tighter in the corners.
What I'm considering because of that is possibly instead of going with the 300#/28mm is possible 350#/29mm or something like that. I'd like to keep the spring rate ratio the same a sthe 200#/whatever the stock S2 torsion bars are because right now the car handles perfectly neutral and it's great on the track, so I'd like to keep it close to that.
What are your experiences with the optimal spring rates and would it be a huge difference in harshness from the 300# to 350#? Because I could definately deal with stiffer than it was at 300# and half soft shocks. I'd like to back my shocks down to about half too as stiffer springs are less harsh than stiff shocks! And it'll handle a lot better.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated! I'm hoping to get this done sometime this summer before my next DE so I have some time to get used to it before I try it on the track.
05-30-2003, 02:54 AM
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No comment on suitable spring rates, but it really seems the ride quality depends much more on the shocks than on the springs... My previous S was a bit harsher than the new 951, even though it had stock springs and the turbo has 250# fronts!
05-30-2003, 03:17 AM
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A lot depends on the purpose whenit comes to suspension. For just driving around, ease up on the shock dial. If you want to keep the nose from diving on hard braking in a turn, stiffer springs, too much roll when you corner, stiffer anti-sways, too much over or under steer, and you need to tweek the balance between front and back. For optimum track set-ups, ask the guys at one of the race tuning shops, or check the specs of the 944 Spec series racers at the NASA web site. Remember the stiifer you go the more you'll need a mouthpiece on the freeway
05-30-2003, 08:38 AM
#4
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Sami951:
<strong>No comment on suitable spring rates, but it really seems the ride quality depends much more on the shocks than on the springs... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Bingo!
The dampers are way over adjusted. They are being asked to do the work of the springs. You will also wear them out more quickly that way. Back them down.
<strong>No comment on suitable spring rates, but it really seems the ride quality depends much more on the shocks than on the springs... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Bingo!
The dampers are way over adjusted. They are being asked to do the work of the springs. You will also wear them out more quickly that way. Back them down.
05-30-2003, 10:11 AM
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Yeah I definately plan on backing them off to about half the next time I have the car on the rack (maybe this weekend) so I can do the rears..the fronts are simple to adjust.
I'm thinking maybe 350# springs and 29mm torsion bars are what I want to go with. If I can enjoy driving on these stiff as hell shocks, stiffer springs probably wouldn't bother me much. Besides I prefer the handling over the comfort in this car anyways.
are 29mm torsion bars the correct match for 350# springs? Or should I go with 300#/28mm because I know they're well balanced on the other car I rode in? I also have 968 m030 sway bars..
I'm thinking maybe 350# springs and 29mm torsion bars are what I want to go with. If I can enjoy driving on these stiff as hell shocks, stiffer springs probably wouldn't bother me much. Besides I prefer the handling over the comfort in this car anyways.
are 29mm torsion bars the correct match for 350# springs? Or should I go with 300#/28mm because I know they're well balanced on the other car I rode in? I also have 968 m030 sway bars..
05-30-2003, 12:43 PM
#6
Race Director
Dave,
I run 350 lbs springs and 30 mm t-bars in my 944 spec car with weltmeister sway bars. I can't comment on ride quality since I don't drive it on the street. It is also stripped out and weights abotu 2450 lbs empty vs the 3000 or so from a 944 Turbo or S2.
Point is that the heavier the higher spring rates are needed to hold-up the car. Therefore 300 lbs-in on a 1400 lbs car is ALOT stiffer than 300 lbs-in on 4000lbs car.
So. I really don't know what is the comfortable limit for a full weight 944 S2 or Turbo. Just remember that your butt is probably the best judge of what works for you.
You are probably in the right range, just remember that you only want to do the t-bars once. My advice is to select these and then build the rest of the suspension around them.
I run 350 lbs springs and 30 mm t-bars in my 944 spec car with weltmeister sway bars. I can't comment on ride quality since I don't drive it on the street. It is also stripped out and weights abotu 2450 lbs empty vs the 3000 or so from a 944 Turbo or S2.
Point is that the heavier the higher spring rates are needed to hold-up the car. Therefore 300 lbs-in on a 1400 lbs car is ALOT stiffer than 300 lbs-in on 4000lbs car.
So. I really don't know what is the comfortable limit for a full weight 944 S2 or Turbo. Just remember that your butt is probably the best judge of what works for you.
You are probably in the right range, just remember that you only want to do the t-bars once. My advice is to select these and then build the rest of the suspension around them.
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05-30-2003, 01:19 PM
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It's primarily a street car but I'm going to be doing maybe 4-5 track events a year or possibly more if I can afford the tires.
I've been reading the archives and some people say 300# is too stiff for them but riding int he car with 300s was pretyt soft compared to these stiff shocks I'm running on my car now. I think I want to go 350 but I'm not sure what size torsion bars would compliment it without inducing massive oversteer. I guess I could go with 29mm and if it's too stiff in the rear I can soften the rear sway bar to its lowest setting.
Like M758 said I could try 350 and 29mm and if I need to change the front springs some I can since they're easy enough to do..would there be that big of a difference between 28mm and 29mm t-bars? Or would it be around the same difference as 1mm different sway bars in that you notice it but it's not extreme?
I've been reading the archives and some people say 300# is too stiff for them but riding int he car with 300s was pretyt soft compared to these stiff shocks I'm running on my car now. I think I want to go 350 but I'm not sure what size torsion bars would compliment it without inducing massive oversteer. I guess I could go with 29mm and if it's too stiff in the rear I can soften the rear sway bar to its lowest setting.
Like M758 said I could try 350 and 29mm and if I need to change the front springs some I can since they're easy enough to do..would there be that big of a difference between 28mm and 29mm t-bars? Or would it be around the same difference as 1mm different sway bars in that you notice it but it's not extreme?
05-30-2003, 07:03 PM
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Good articles..thanks guys! That last one talks about using 260# springs with 28mm torsion bars..so I'm guessing putting 350# on there with 29mm wouldn't give me real crazy oversteer.hmmm..
But this is a street car I may go with 300# and 28mm and have a more comfortable street ride that will still work well on the track..I'll save the massive stiff setup for the track car I may eventually get..
But this is a street car I may go with 300# and 28mm and have a more comfortable street ride that will still work well on the track..I'll save the massive stiff setup for the track car I may eventually get..
05-30-2003, 07:29 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by dave120:
<strong>But this is a street car I may go with 300# and 28mm..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Sounds like a winner!
May have to turn the rear sway up a notch to full - is a driver preference thing... which end do you want to hit first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Good Luck!
<strong>But this is a street car I may go with 300# and 28mm..</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Sounds like a winner!
May have to turn the rear sway up a notch to full - is a driver preference thing... which end do you want to hit first <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Good Luck!
05-30-2003, 07:30 PM
#13
The rear shock setting makes less of a difference ride (and I suppose handling) wise than the front so you may feel a difference backing off the front shocks for street driving. Tire pressure also makes a big difference in ride quality and dropping to factory pressures or even lower (like about 25 lb) can make the car a lot more comfortable without a great sacrifice in handling.
05-30-2003, 07:54 PM
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On a similar note, what is the ideal autocross/street setup for the 8v NA? I already have koni yellows.. wondering about springs, and sway bars?
*** THREADJACK ***
*** THREADJACK ***
05-30-2003, 10:07 PM
#15
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by schlag:
<strong>On a similar note, what is the ideal autocross/street setup for the 8v NA? I already have koni yellows.. wondering about springs, and sway bars?
*** THREADJACK ***</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The roads around here are pretty rough so i'm really considering the #225 front coil conversion kit with 27mm. torsion bars
<strong>On a similar note, what is the ideal autocross/street setup for the 8v NA? I already have koni yellows.. wondering about springs, and sway bars?
*** THREADJACK ***</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The roads around here are pretty rough so i'm really considering the #225 front coil conversion kit with 27mm. torsion bars