OT- Survey: Girlfriend's considering an S2000
04-25-2002, 06:18 AM
#32
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To Dan in Pasadena, I think the S2000 is an excellent choice for you (or your wife - you may find yourself taking every opportunity to drive it! 
). The most common things I hear from the skeptics are complaints about the lack of torque, engine longevity, etc. etc. The car makes more than enough torque to scoot you around town, and shifting isn't necessary as often as you'd think. And not like it's a chore; the 6-speed is simply the most enjoyable shifter there is - made my old 944 feel like a pickup truck in comparison! I've got over 35k miles (including a few track days and dozens of autocrosses) on my car without a single problem. The cars are every bit as reliable as any other Honda. If there's anything to complain about, it's perhaps a slight shortage of interior room, but that's in keeping with the race-car spirit of the car. It's noisy, harsh, and windy with the top down, and the rear end will snap around if you're ham-fisted (or footed, as the case may be). But that's the way sports cars were meant to be. Think classic Colin Chapman design philosophy crossed with modern day Japanese sportsbike engineering and you're getting close...
...
Now I have a question for Danno and any others who have tracked their cars a bit, especially against S2000s. What would it take to make a Porsche quicker than an S2000 at the track, and put it into Z06 territory? Before the S2000 I owned an '87 944S, a beautiful car but it was rather anemic in power and pretty soft handling by comparison; completely out of the S2000's league. Right now I'm thinking of picking up a late 80's 951 or 928 for $8-10k, and then feeding it another $10-15k for suspension, brakes, roll cage, race seats, engine goodies, etc. Doing all the work myself, would that be enough, or does that just get the ball rolling? Goal would be ~8lb./hp and race car handling. Can it be done? Would it be at all reliable (within the Porsche context)? I want to split racing and commuting duties between two cars, so the Porsche will be a weekend-only autocross/track demon that's still street legal. I'd also like to do the OTC or One Lap in a year or two, which is why reliability is a concern.
Wow, sorry for this long post, hope somebody reads it, and if you do, thanks in advance!
--Jason
'01 S2K
'87 944S gone but not forgotten
). The most common things I hear from the skeptics are complaints about the lack of torque, engine longevity, etc. etc. The car makes more than enough torque to scoot you around town, and shifting isn't necessary as often as you'd think. And not like it's a chore; the 6-speed is simply the most enjoyable shifter there is - made my old 944 feel like a pickup truck in comparison! I've got over 35k miles (including a few track days and dozens of autocrosses) on my car without a single problem. The cars are every bit as reliable as any other Honda. If there's anything to complain about, it's perhaps a slight shortage of interior room, but that's in keeping with the race-car spirit of the car. It's noisy, harsh, and windy with the top down, and the rear end will snap around if you're ham-fisted (or footed, as the case may be). But that's the way sports cars were meant to be. Think classic Colin Chapman design philosophy crossed with modern day Japanese sportsbike engineering and you're getting close......
Now I have a question for Danno and any others who have tracked their cars a bit, especially against S2000s. What would it take to make a Porsche quicker than an S2000 at the track, and put it into Z06 territory? Before the S2000 I owned an '87 944S, a beautiful car but it was rather anemic in power and pretty soft handling by comparison; completely out of the S2000's league. Right now I'm thinking of picking up a late 80's 951 or 928 for $8-10k, and then feeding it another $10-15k for suspension, brakes, roll cage, race seats, engine goodies, etc. Doing all the work myself, would that be enough, or does that just get the ball rolling? Goal would be ~8lb./hp and race car handling. Can it be done? Would it be at all reliable (within the Porsche context)? I want to split racing and commuting duties between two cars, so the Porsche will be a weekend-only autocross/track demon that's still street legal. I'd also like to do the OTC or One Lap in a year or two, which is why reliability is a concern.
Wow, sorry for this long post, hope somebody reads it, and if you do, thanks in advance!
--Jason
'01 S2K
'87 944S gone but not forgotten
04-25-2002, 07:20 AM
#33
Race Director
"What would it take to make a Porsche quicker than an S2000 at the track, and put it into Z06 territory?"
Well, that's going to be a tough order. I haven't seen a single Z06 or Porsche beat an S2000 at the track yet.
At Sears Point three weeks ago, the best official Z06 time was 1:59.1, Aaron got 1:58.4 and Doug got 1:58.7 in their S2000s. Another guy in an S2000 did 1:56.2 The best I could manage was 2:02 with a passenger in my 951. In my student's Z06, I got a 1:59.x
Buttonwillow in January, same story. Best street Z06 time was 2:14.705. A race-prepped stripped-out one with Goodyear slicks did 2:01.9. Doug pulled 2:12.886s in his S2000. I didn't run in this event because I blew up my oil-pan at Laguna the weekend before, so I just instructed.
At Willow Springs a couple of months ago, a guy in a Z06 did very well at 1:29.x and Doug was 1:27 in the S2000. I managed a 1:35.
Now to put that in perspective, the Z06 & S2000s were stock cars running stock engines with stock suspensions using Yokohama A032Rs or Hoosiers. In constrast, I've got around $10k in engine & suspension mods in my 951. The 951 simply lacks the latest developments in technology like variable intakes and valve-timing and exhausts, double-wishbone multi-link suspensions, rigid FEA lightweight bodies, etc.
So if you're going to get an $8-10k P-car, don't expect to put another $10-15k into it and be competitive with those guys. You're looking closer to $20k+.
With your budget, I'd put $5k into engine mods like a larger turbo, aftermarket EFI, free-flow exhaust. Then another $5k into suspension with coilovers and Bilstein shocks all around. Some big 10/11" wheels with sticky rubber would round out the package. Then spend the remaining $5k on track time and racing school. Have fun!
Well, that's going to be a tough order. I haven't seen a single Z06 or Porsche beat an S2000 at the track yet.
At Sears Point three weeks ago, the best official Z06 time was 1:59.1, Aaron got 1:58.4 and Doug got 1:58.7 in their S2000s. Another guy in an S2000 did 1:56.2 The best I could manage was 2:02 with a passenger in my 951. In my student's Z06, I got a 1:59.x
Buttonwillow in January, same story. Best street Z06 time was 2:14.705. A race-prepped stripped-out one with Goodyear slicks did 2:01.9. Doug pulled 2:12.886s in his S2000. I didn't run in this event because I blew up my oil-pan at Laguna the weekend before, so I just instructed.
At Willow Springs a couple of months ago, a guy in a Z06 did very well at 1:29.x and Doug was 1:27 in the S2000. I managed a 1:35.
Now to put that in perspective, the Z06 & S2000s were stock cars running stock engines with stock suspensions using Yokohama A032Rs or Hoosiers. In constrast, I've got around $10k in engine & suspension mods in my 951. The 951 simply lacks the latest developments in technology like variable intakes and valve-timing and exhausts, double-wishbone multi-link suspensions, rigid FEA lightweight bodies, etc.
So if you're going to get an $8-10k P-car, don't expect to put another $10-15k into it and be competitive with those guys. You're looking closer to $20k+.
With your budget, I'd put $5k into engine mods like a larger turbo, aftermarket EFI, free-flow exhaust. Then another $5k into suspension with coilovers and Bilstein shocks all around. Some big 10/11" wheels with sticky rubber would round out the package. Then spend the remaining $5k on track time and racing school. Have fun!
04-25-2002, 04:23 PM
#34
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Awesome, thanks Dan!
I think the reason the 'Vettes have been behind is lack of top drivers. At Buttonwillow back in January (with Wurth Motorsports) James Gunn and Gary Thomason were running 2:01 & 2:04, a good 8-10 seconds quicker than Bitterman and Hayashi. Haven't seen Gary or James at any of the Wurth events since, so their cars haven't been duly represented.
I saw you at the SOW a couple months ago, recognized you from when I used to subscribe to the old 944 email list, I should've said hi. Looked like you were having some oil containment issues?
I was half a second off Bitterman's pace that day at the Streets with less tire and without a proper rollbar (cajones factor more applicable in a convertible), and was about a second off their pace at Laguna. I'm certainly no expert driver, but given a proper car can be competitive. What I'd like to have is more car so I can beat those guys without actually being a better driver... The S2000 is pretty much tapped out as it is, and all the next steps from here involve irreparable modification, which I don't want to do to a car that's still being payed for. Plus I like the idea of flames shooting out the exhaust... 
Well, thanks again for the insight Dan. I'll be keeping my eyes open for a deal on a 951...
Jason Rhoades
I think the reason the 'Vettes have been behind is lack of top drivers. At Buttonwillow back in January (with Wurth Motorsports) James Gunn and Gary Thomason were running 2:01 & 2:04, a good 8-10 seconds quicker than Bitterman and Hayashi. Haven't seen Gary or James at any of the Wurth events since, so their cars haven't been duly represented.
I saw you at the SOW a couple months ago, recognized you from when I used to subscribe to the old 944 email list, I should've said hi. Looked like you were having some oil containment issues?
I was half a second off Bitterman's pace that day at the Streets with less tire and without a proper rollbar (cajones factor more applicable in a convertible), and was about a second off their pace at Laguna. I'm certainly no expert driver, but given a proper car can be competitive. What I'd like to have is more car so I can beat those guys without actually being a better driver...
The S2000 is pretty much tapped out as it is, and all the next steps from here involve irreparable modification, which I don't want to do to a car that's still being payed for. Plus I like the idea of flames shooting out the exhaust... Well, thanks again for the insight Dan. I'll be keeping my eyes open for a deal on a 951...
Jason Rhoades
04-25-2002, 04:39 PM
#35
Race Director
I made the mistake of using some silicone sealant on my oil-pan gasket at SOW. It felt kinda slippery when I re-installed it and I should've known better. Anyway, it blew out again at SOW and that was that... At least the second I replaced the gasket, it only took 10 hours.
Yeah, James Gunn was the guy with the race-prepped Z06 at Buttonwillow. I think the S2000 is pretty much maxed out as far as engine upgrades go. Significant power can only be had with expensive turbo kits at $5000k+.
I think the 951 would still be a good value in a race car. Since you're going to be stripping it out and rebuilding it anyway, you might as well get a worn-out one at $5k. Then $15k in mods later, you'll definitely have something that can spank a S2000 or Z06!
Yeah, James Gunn was the guy with the race-prepped Z06 at Buttonwillow. I think the S2000 is pretty much maxed out as far as engine upgrades go. Significant power can only be had with expensive turbo kits at $5000k+.
I think the 951 would still be a good value in a race car. Since you're going to be stripping it out and rebuilding it anyway, you might as well get a worn-out one at $5k. Then $15k in mods later, you'll definitely have something that can spank a S2000 or Z06!
04-25-2002, 05:00 PM
#36
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"Now I have a question for Danno and any others who have tracked their cars a bit, especially against S2000s. What would it take to make a Porsche quicker than an S2000 at the track, and put it into Z06 territory? Before the S2000 I owned an '87 944S, a beautiful car but it was rather anemic in power and pretty soft handling by comparison; completely out of the S2000's league. Right now I'm thinking of picking up a late 80's 951 or 928 for $8-10k, and then feeding it another $10-15k for suspension, brakes, roll cage, race seats, engine goodies, etc. Doing all the work myself, would that be enough, or does that just get the ball rolling? Goal would be ~8lb./hp and race car handling. Can it be done? Would it be at all reliable (within the Porsche context)? I want to split racing and commuting duties between two cars, so the Porsche will be a weekend-only autocross/track demon that's still street legal. I'd also like to do the OTC or One Lap in a year or two, which is why reliability is a concern.
Wow, sorry for this long post, hope somebody reads it, and if you do, thanks in advance!
--Jason
'01 S2K
'87 944S gone but not forgotten[/QB][/QUOTE]
I easily beat an S2000 at the streets of willow in October in my chipped TS with coilovers. The Boxster was also faster at the SCCA runoffs. BTW I worked for Honda R&D america and the S2k is a really fun car, and I thought very hard about it it except it really had nothing to offer over a 951 stock except a stock stiffer suspension and a $30k commitment. My TS with coilovers (350lb front springs), and camber plates now feels actually better than the S2k and light years ahead of that weltmeister spring crap, and still rides well for my tastes. The only concern I had for the S2k we had at the HRA shop was the corrosion I saw on the engine block after only 10,000miles. But then it could have been a preproduction engine too, it's hard to say.
Would'nt give up a 951 for one if that's what it came down to. But if I was in the market and had to buy a new car, but could not afford Boxster S, the choice would be easy.
Jon
Wow, sorry for this long post, hope somebody reads it, and if you do, thanks in advance!
--Jason
'01 S2K
'87 944S gone but not forgotten[/QB][/QUOTE]
I easily beat an S2000 at the streets of willow in October in my chipped TS with coilovers. The Boxster was also faster at the SCCA runoffs. BTW I worked for Honda R&D america and the S2k is a really fun car, and I thought very hard about it it except it really had nothing to offer over a 951 stock except a stock stiffer suspension and a $30k commitment. My TS with coilovers (350lb front springs), and camber plates now feels actually better than the S2k and light years ahead of that weltmeister spring crap, and still rides well for my tastes. The only concern I had for the S2k we had at the HRA shop was the corrosion I saw on the engine block after only 10,000miles. But then it could have been a preproduction engine too, it's hard to say.
Would'nt give up a 951 for one if that's what it came down to. But if I was in the market and had to buy a new car, but could not afford Boxster S, the choice would be easy.
Jon
04-25-2002, 05:12 PM
#38
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I posted earlier in the thread about one of my employees that is a founder of the s2ki forum. He just posted out a thread I found to be quite an interesting read.
<a href="http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58687" target="_blank">http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58687</a>
Basics- To get a lot more power out of the Honda vtec, supercharging is about the most reliable way to go. The best s2000 supercharger set-up is from Comptech. Turns out, some sort of harmonic balance issue is causing catastrophic head or bracket failures. And it is happening consistently. Sounds as though there isn't as a much attention paid to balancing of the supercharger as Honda paid to the vtec engine.
It seems like this comes down to the s2000 being an awesome car out of the box. But as for adding horsepower, relatively inexpensively, there may not be many options. Certainly nowhere near as many options as we have with a 951.
Cheers,
Steve Cooper
<a href="http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58687" target="_blank">http://www.s2ki.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58687</a>
Basics- To get a lot more power out of the Honda vtec, supercharging is about the most reliable way to go. The best s2000 supercharger set-up is from Comptech. Turns out, some sort of harmonic balance issue is causing catastrophic head or bracket failures. And it is happening consistently. Sounds as though there isn't as a much attention paid to balancing of the supercharger as Honda paid to the vtec engine.
It seems like this comes down to the s2000 being an awesome car out of the box. But as for adding horsepower, relatively inexpensively, there may not be many options. Certainly nowhere near as many options as we have with a 951.
Cheers,
Steve Cooper
04-25-2002, 07:29 PM
#39
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For the most part the supercharger has been very reliable, after some initial engine management issues were resolved. The guy(s) with problems are both big track junkies, and not really representative of the population. Comptech, who makes the supercharger, is a huge aftermarket supplier for the NSX and they are generally very highly regarded. Biggest complaint has more to do with the nature of the centrifugal unit, in that it tends to accentuate the S2000's power curve, all top end. Folks looking for the low-rpm boost provided by a roots-type unit have been disappointed. Unfortunately with a static 11:1 c/r the S2000 isn't a very good boost candidate.
The S2000 is pretty much maxed out. A cat-back exhaust will give you 8hp MAX, and several designs have been proven to actually lose power. There's some new Air/Fuel controller units coming out that have shown promising ~10hp gains, but you can't expect to gain more than 20-25 hp N/A without getting into the internals.
JonM, your words are encouraging. Would you care to share a bit more about your setup and what sort of times you've run at CA tracks (Buttonwillow, SOW, Laguna, etc.)? With a cage and the back seats removed is a 944 capable of carrying its own race wheels/tires to the track?
Thanks so much for all the info guys!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Jason
The S2000 is pretty much maxed out. A cat-back exhaust will give you 8hp MAX, and several designs have been proven to actually lose power. There's some new Air/Fuel controller units coming out that have shown promising ~10hp gains, but you can't expect to gain more than 20-25 hp N/A without getting into the internals.
JonM, your words are encouraging. Would you care to share a bit more about your setup and what sort of times you've run at CA tracks (Buttonwillow, SOW, Laguna, etc.)? With a cage and the back seats removed is a 944 capable of carrying its own race wheels/tires to the track?
Thanks so much for all the info guys!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Jason
04-25-2002, 08:04 PM
#40
I just wanted to comment on the S2000. Ih ave no experience with any other car mentioned, but I have run across exact 2 S2000s.
In two distinct instances, the S2k was able to keep up with the S4 (928 - '89) UNTIL 140mph.
Quite suprisingly to me, but in no way disappointing, the S2k was right there until this level. Yes, I was pulling, but not pulling AWAY as I would with something like a 911 or 951.
(oops - did I say that?)
I trust that Honda has made a Jewel of a car in that S2000. Anything THAT well-balanced HAS to be fun.
In two distinct instances, the S2k was able to keep up with the S4 (928 - '89) UNTIL 140mph.
Quite suprisingly to me, but in no way disappointing, the S2k was right there until this level. Yes, I was pulling, but not pulling AWAY as I would with something like a 911 or 951.
(oops - did I say that?)
I trust that Honda has made a Jewel of a car in that S2000. Anything THAT well-balanced HAS to be fun.
04-25-2002, 09:05 PM
#41
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[quote]Originally posted by BrendanCampion:
<strong>
In two distinct instances, the S2k was able to keep up with the S4 (928 - '89) UNTIL 140mph.
Quite suprisingly to me, but in no way disappointing, the S2k was right there until this level. </strong><hr></blockquote>
140 is where the S2000 has to make its 5-6 shift, and starts to run out of legs. I once ran an AMG E55 Merc on the way to Vegas, and we were pretty even up to that point. He walked right by me past 140.
S2000 top speed on the flat is ~150 but there's a video of some nutball in Belgium running it up to redline in 6th (175mph) on a really long downhill...
<strong>
In two distinct instances, the S2k was able to keep up with the S4 (928 - '89) UNTIL 140mph.
Quite suprisingly to me, but in no way disappointing, the S2k was right there until this level. </strong><hr></blockquote>
140 is where the S2000 has to make its 5-6 shift, and starts to run out of legs. I once ran an AMG E55 Merc on the way to Vegas, and we were pretty even up to that point. He walked right by me past 140.
S2000 top speed on the flat is ~150 but there's a video of some nutball in Belgium running it up to redline in 6th (175mph) on a really long downhill...
04-25-2002, 09:34 PM
#42
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[quote] Doug Hayashi and Aaron Bitterman (http://www.nsxfiles.com/stories.htm) have pretty much been wiping everyone's butt all over the tracks here in SoCal. (including Vipers, Z06 Corvettes, Ferraris and 996TTs). <hr></blockquote>
If your saying the stock S2000 is quicker round a racetrack than a stock 996TT then what the hell are Porsche doing.
My guess is that, with a skilled driver in a 996TT and an S2000 the 996TT would record better times than S2000. At least I hope, or I'm shifting over to the Jap car makers.
Sam.
If your saying the stock S2000 is quicker round a racetrack than a stock 996TT then what the hell are Porsche doing.
My guess is that, with a skilled driver in a 996TT and an S2000 the 996TT would record better times than S2000. At least I hope, or I'm shifting over to the Jap car makers.
Sam.
04-25-2002, 09:39 PM
#43
Nordschleife Master
[QUOTE]Originally posted by rage2:
[QB]
"I'm on the S2K forums (www.s2ki.com) and there has been quite a few engine failures already. The ratio was about 1 in 100 where an engine failed and was rebuilt (not replaced) under warranty.
Check out the following thread that follows the engine failures. 27 engines out of 1836 registered owners on the forum."
Information from that thread makes it sound like Honda's standing behind their product, as follows:
"It seems likely to me that the #4 cylinder failure has to do with a manufacturing problem. Most likely this affected a group of engines that were built during the summer of 2000 and put into late 2000 and early 2001 S2000s. I believe that there are two different piston part numbers and the newer piston number part goes into a newer short block that does not have the problem the early ones do.
No one has had the short block replacement and then had another failure. However, our list only includes 26 short block replacements and the failure rate, as far as we know, is below 1%. However, I think all the replacement short blocks are the newer version and are not likely to fail."
Sounds like a lot of owners are letting the oil run low too.
[QB]
"I'm on the S2K forums (www.s2ki.com) and there has been quite a few engine failures already. The ratio was about 1 in 100 where an engine failed and was rebuilt (not replaced) under warranty.
Check out the following thread that follows the engine failures. 27 engines out of 1836 registered owners on the forum."
Information from that thread makes it sound like Honda's standing behind their product, as follows:
"It seems likely to me that the #4 cylinder failure has to do with a manufacturing problem. Most likely this affected a group of engines that were built during the summer of 2000 and put into late 2000 and early 2001 S2000s. I believe that there are two different piston part numbers and the newer piston number part goes into a newer short block that does not have the problem the early ones do.
No one has had the short block replacement and then had another failure. However, our list only includes 26 short block replacements and the failure rate, as far as we know, is below 1%. However, I think all the replacement short blocks are the newer version and are not likely to fail."
Sounds like a lot of owners are letting the oil run low too.
04-25-2002, 09:41 PM
#44
Nordschleife Master
[quote]Originally posted by Tabor Kelly:
<strong>It is still more powerful @ 4,000 than my 1987 944 NA.</strong><hr></blockquote>
not if you figure in the weight difference
<strong>It is still more powerful @ 4,000 than my 1987 944 NA.</strong><hr></blockquote>
not if you figure in the weight difference
04-25-2002, 10:11 PM
#45
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[quote]Originally posted by sb944:
<strong>
If your saying the stock S2000 is quicker round a racetrack than a stock 996TT then what the hell are Porsche doing.
My guess is that, with a skilled driver in a 996TT and an S2000 the 996TT would record better times than S2000. At least I hope, or I'm shifting over to the Jap car makers.
Sam.</strong><hr></blockquote>At the track the S2000 is quite a bit behind a 996TT. Or at least it should be.
A buddy of mine, who is an exceptional driver, was lapping Laguna Seca in his mildly modded S2000 on monstrous Hoosiers, on the same day Road & Track was there testing the GT2. The Porsche was on street tires and my friend could hang with it in the corners, but on the straights the GT2 just pulled away like nobody's business. The Porsche was piloted by R&T's Kim Wolfkill, a pretty good driver himself.
At the track driver differences are huge, and I'll take a pro in a Miata over an average person in a McLaren F1 any day.
<strong>
If your saying the stock S2000 is quicker round a racetrack than a stock 996TT then what the hell are Porsche doing.
My guess is that, with a skilled driver in a 996TT and an S2000 the 996TT would record better times than S2000. At least I hope, or I'm shifting over to the Jap car makers.
Sam.</strong><hr></blockquote>At the track the S2000 is quite a bit behind a 996TT. Or at least it should be.
A buddy of mine, who is an exceptional driver, was lapping Laguna Seca in his mildly modded S2000 on monstrous Hoosiers, on the same day Road & Track was there testing the GT2. The Porsche was on street tires and my friend could hang with it in the corners, but on the straights the GT2 just pulled away like nobody's business. The Porsche was piloted by R&T's Kim Wolfkill, a pretty good driver himself.
At the track driver differences are huge, and I'll take a pro in a Miata over an average person in a McLaren F1 any day.