How many hours to install clutch?
09-30-2010 | 11:10 PM
#31
Drifting
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,368
Likes: 2
I have a question, does everyone use just the Sach's clutch, and why? I mean there are other good clutch manufacturers out there and Im just interested if its just due to being a Euro part or its what has been found as the best?
Also, Found a genuine Sach's kit for $677 (for the Turbo 944), but would need an alignment tool and pilot busing and hardware, which would bring the price up to about $720 or so and pivot shaft bearings would be a wise choice as well from what I have read... Also, anyone tried the aluminum flywheel? I have used them on previous cars and motor windup is greatly improved over a heavy iron flywheel...
Also, Found a genuine Sach's kit for $677 (for the Turbo 944), but would need an alignment tool and pilot busing and hardware, which would bring the price up to about $720 or so and pivot shaft bearings would be a wise choice as well from what I have read... Also, anyone tried the aluminum flywheel? I have used them on previous cars and motor windup is greatly improved over a heavy iron flywheel...
i threw in an aluminum flywheel while i was there. it was sort of a "gift" to myself for saving money and taking on my first major car repair. the car does seem to rev up faster, but what i noticed most was how fast the rpms drop. it was like a completely different car when i got done. its made me get much better at heal toe shifting. the drivetrain also sounds a fair bit louder as well. i presume this is due to lack of dampening.
09-30-2010 | 11:15 PM
#32
Pro
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 745
Likes: 43
I know people that have bad luck with aluminum flywheels and people that have had no problems. I personally would not use an after market aluminum flywheel. Just stick with the factory proven flywheel. I have seen flywheel bolts snap on aluminum flywheels because the aluminum obviously expands and contracts differently than the steel. If you are looking for a lightened flywheel I would try to find a steel one.
09-30-2010 | 11:17 PM
#33
Pro
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 745
Likes: 43
Although now that I think about it all the times that the flywheel bolts snapped was when the aluminum flywheel was replacing a dual mass flywheel like on the 968's so maybe replacing a "regular" flywheel with an aluminum would not be a problem.
09-30-2010 | 11:29 PM
#34
Drifting
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 2,368
Likes: 2
that was what my research showed
10-01-2010 | 01:19 AM
#36
Instructor
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
Everyone complains about this job, I dunno, the only thing I fear is the crossover pipe. Getting those turbo bolts out is a PITA. I kinda also fear your transmission jack tho. It might be 'your day' if that crate melts in the AZ heat.
In an NA, this job is almost fun, but it does require some methodical precision. A lift is not that necessary... once the car is jacked at a decent angle, it's fairly straightforward and I prefer this job to anything fwd. A potential issue is the pressure plate bolts. You need a very good quality triple-square and even then, you may have to drill a few of them. Otherwise this clutch swap is tricky for the first timer at getting the TO bearing on the a breeze if you have a flywheel lock which is not absolutely necessary, but quite helpful, I would find one. Pilot bearings are tough to get out without a slide hammer, but the alignment tool is absolutely necessary. Plastic ones are cheap and available.
Be sure that clutch is not also suffered the TO fork failing in the normal places, so you want to prepare for that. Best way to save them from failing is the proper lube. The 944 specific one (yes, there is a part # 944.xxx...) super expensive from Porsche, like $70 a tube, but there is a 928 grease for the same function, and that's always been 1/4 the price. Bearings for the fork are cheap and easy to replace. $30 well spent.
For parts, the 951S is almost a natural choice for most of us lucky turbo people, I might also search for the 930 disc. Else a NA should get a sachs spring center kit. Learn to live with some transmission noise.
So, best to do it with air, jack it UP!, have the best tools, various socket extensions are helpful and a good prybar... mine is a Snap-on named Martha.
In an NA, this job is almost fun, but it does require some methodical precision. A lift is not that necessary... once the car is jacked at a decent angle, it's fairly straightforward and I prefer this job to anything fwd. A potential issue is the pressure plate bolts. You need a very good quality triple-square and even then, you may have to drill a few of them. Otherwise this clutch swap is tricky for the first timer at getting the TO bearing on the a breeze if you have a flywheel lock which is not absolutely necessary, but quite helpful, I would find one. Pilot bearings are tough to get out without a slide hammer, but the alignment tool is absolutely necessary. Plastic ones are cheap and available.
Be sure that clutch is not also suffered the TO fork failing in the normal places, so you want to prepare for that. Best way to save them from failing is the proper lube. The 944 specific one (yes, there is a part # 944.xxx...) super expensive from Porsche, like $70 a tube, but there is a 928 grease for the same function, and that's always been 1/4 the price. Bearings for the fork are cheap and easy to replace. $30 well spent.
For parts, the 951S is almost a natural choice for most of us lucky turbo people, I might also search for the 930 disc. Else a NA should get a sachs spring center kit. Learn to live with some transmission noise.
So, best to do it with air, jack it UP!, have the best tools, various socket extensions are helpful and a good prybar... mine is a Snap-on named Martha.
10-01-2010 | 11:36 AM
#38
Advanced
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
From: durham, nc
10-01-2010 | 01:17 PM
#39
Drifting
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,240
Likes: 1
From: Darien, IL
10-01-2010 | 01:45 PM
#40
Pro
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
From: Redmond, Oregon
I've heard on many forums about the bronco disc replacement. A lot of the 924 guys go that route to hold up a little more power since stock discs seem to slip over 200hp from what I was told. And hell... if it's less expensive and holds up just as well, why not?
10-01-2010 | 03:18 PM
#41
Cruisin'
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 9
Likes: 1
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=28264
I used the small bolts and washer spacer method. I actually picked the Disc up for under $40 and it was a Sachs! Why pay them to do the same thing? When I drilled out the rivits that held the hub to the disc I was shocked to find out that they were steel and not aluminum thats how fricken soft they were. There were also only 2 rivits per tab as where I filled every hole with bolts! the weight is to minimal IMHO to worry about. I red loctited them and peened the ends over so that they can not back out.
I have not had any slipping except up at about 6100rpms the day after I replaced the clutch(obviously not broken in yet) and none since. As I posted earlier in the tread I reused several pieces to cut costs as Im spending money on my V8 swap components. I inspected everything and would not have put a broken or completely worn out piece back in the car and would not advise doing so either for safety or fear of having to do it again so soon.
Always replace the rear main seal, pilot bearing and flywheel bolts!
I used the small bolts and washer spacer method. I actually picked the Disc up for under $40 and it was a Sachs! Why pay them to do the same thing? When I drilled out the rivits that held the hub to the disc I was shocked to find out that they were steel and not aluminum thats how fricken soft they were. There were also only 2 rivits per tab as where I filled every hole with bolts! the weight is to minimal IMHO to worry about. I red loctited them and peened the ends over so that they can not back out.
I have not had any slipping except up at about 6100rpms the day after I replaced the clutch(obviously not broken in yet) and none since. As I posted earlier in the tread I reused several pieces to cut costs as Im spending money on my V8 swap components. I inspected everything and would not have put a broken or completely worn out piece back in the car and would not advise doing so either for safety or fear of having to do it again so soon.
Always replace the rear main seal, pilot bearing and flywheel bolts!
10-01-2010 | 03:42 PM
#42
Proprietoristicly Refined
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,816
Likes: 5
From: ~Carefree Highway~
People, people.
I need to reply to some of these posts.
Listen to PorscheDoc!
Some of the following times are next to impossible. The FW should be resurfaced and if you want a smooth PP & FW you should get the pair balanced.
Replacing the RMS takes more time.
If you want some good reading, take a look at PorscheDocs blog or his web site and compare experience
http://docwilenracing.wordpress.com/
http://www.germanautoforums.com/forum/
eviladam is the boy wonder... 15 minutes to read the manual and start to finish in 6 hours!! Including having a Precision grind on the FW--Including the machine work!!!
I am stunned!!
NEXT
OK, I also use the Italian clutch disc. I like it. It has a little more "grab" from start and the disc is thicker than the Sachs stock. 2 years now and it seems to get better the more I drive
FINALLY
I am not convinced this is a good idea because of the work involved to change the disc.
BUT, if you want cheap...
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=28264
Are you sure of the quality of the work???
ALSO, if you care to read more.....
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...expensive.html
John
I need to reply to some of these posts.
The 968 is half the time due to the bellhousing access. On the 944, the tranny needs to come out and slide the torque tube back, then remove the bellhousing. IIRC mitchell manual lists it as 12 hours on an NA last I checked and about 16 on a turbo, I think clark's garage says 16 on an NA and 18-20 on a turbo which to my knowledge is Porsche's book time. I can knock a turbo clutch out in 4 hours on jackstands if people stay out of my way.....but i've done dozens and dozens and dozens of clutch jobs on 944's, and have a much bigger tool selection than most....it greatly speeds up the time when you know exactly what tool you need for what bolt. I typically split book time wich what I can do it in with the customer which ends up at about 8 hours. I make a little extra for knowing the job and they save a little bit for me knowing the job.
First time around, expect 12-16 hours laying on your back.
Oh and it will greatly speed up your time if you can have a guy NOT under the car that can just sit there and hand you tools. Having to crawl back and forth under the car will not only slow you up, but I promise your body will feel it worse the next couple of days.
First time around, expect 12-16 hours laying on your back.
Oh and it will greatly speed up your time if you can have a guy NOT under the car that can just sit there and hand you tools. Having to crawl back and forth under the car will not only slow you up, but I promise your body will feel it worse the next couple of days.
Some of the following times are next to impossible. The FW should be resurfaced and if you want a smooth PP & FW you should get the pair balanced.
Replacing the RMS takes more time.
If you want some good reading, take a look at PorscheDocs blog or his web site and compare experience
http://docwilenracing.wordpress.com/
http://www.germanautoforums.com/forum/
eviladam is the boy wonder... 15 minutes to read the manual and start to finish in 6 hours!! Including having a Precision grind on the FW--Including the machine work!!!
I am stunned!!
Did My 86 N/A a year ago. Sat down with my tech manuals and read it over in about 15min. Went down to my shop and lifted the car on stands(I dont have a lift) took all of 10min. Dropped the exhaust in less than 30min, this included aerocroil soak time on the rusty nuts and bolts to the manifold(i took it all out in one peice as there is ZERO reason not too). Pulled the inner cv axle bolts and tied the cv's up and out of the way, I had to clean out years of road grime from those stupid cheap *** cheese head bolts, Took about 1hr for that. Disconnected the shift rod and pulled in forward into the cab. Reached up and undid the 2 Mount bolts on the Transaxle and put my regular floor jack in under it and proceeded to undo the coupler and then the bellhousing bolts. Pulled the tranny back and dropped it a few inches to disconnect the wires, then to the floor(Took some wiggling and elbow grease! but only a few minutes)
Moved to the front of the car and undid the TT from the bell housing, turned the TT and pushed it back(make sure you took the shifter out with the rod!). I may have done the slave and starter first but either way its 8 bolts total so no biggie, Note that I did NOT drain my slave(I have done clutch jobs on several cars over the years and i have never needed too and if you dont you can just add fluid to top it off and get away with not bleeding the system). Next i took out the slave pivot rod and disconnected the ground wiring. All that took a little over 1hr as I was a little hesitant to pound the rod out... Once I did it was no biggie! Next I moved on to the BH bolts! Bottom 2 are super easy and the top ones not so fun! Took me 1 hour to take them out and I swore the whole time. I even tried tilting the engine back but it didnt help any from underneath(Note that they went back in from underneath the car in minutes!!!!) Pop the BH off and your looking at clutch parts!
So thats about 4 hours for me to get to the clutch, No joke it took me all of about 2 hours by myself to put it all back together and lower it on the ground. NO IDEA WHY!
Now I used the Bronco 2 disc that I spaced out, resurfaced my PP and FW, and Tore down my T/O bearing cleaned it and repacked it. I also cleaned and repacked my pivot rod bearings too. All that took me a couple of hours. If but if you have all new parts ready to go your turn around time would be much faster, obviously. So I know I could do this EASILY in 6 hours, I am not a proffesional mechanic and Im only 29 and this is my dd. For me saving money was high on the list but I was also intruiged with using the Bronco disc and salvaging what I could since at 170K+ miles the only clutch problem I had was the explosive Hockey puck OEM disc which left me stranded at 2:30 am 25miles from home on the side of a highway....
No problems since everything looks good and Ive checked torque on all my
bolts.
Moved to the front of the car and undid the TT from the bell housing, turned the TT and pushed it back(make sure you took the shifter out with the rod!). I may have done the slave and starter first but either way its 8 bolts total so no biggie, Note that I did NOT drain my slave(I have done clutch jobs on several cars over the years and i have never needed too and if you dont you can just add fluid to top it off and get away with not bleeding the system). Next i took out the slave pivot rod and disconnected the ground wiring. All that took a little over 1hr as I was a little hesitant to pound the rod out... Once I did it was no biggie! Next I moved on to the BH bolts! Bottom 2 are super easy and the top ones not so fun! Took me 1 hour to take them out and I swore the whole time. I even tried tilting the engine back but it didnt help any from underneath(Note that they went back in from underneath the car in minutes!!!!) Pop the BH off and your looking at clutch parts!
So thats about 4 hours for me to get to the clutch, No joke it took me all of about 2 hours by myself to put it all back together and lower it on the ground. NO IDEA WHY!
Now I used the Bronco 2 disc that I spaced out, resurfaced my PP and FW, and Tore down my T/O bearing cleaned it and repacked it. I also cleaned and repacked my pivot rod bearings too. All that took me a couple of hours. If but if you have all new parts ready to go your turn around time would be much faster, obviously. So I know I could do this EASILY in 6 hours, I am not a proffesional mechanic and Im only 29 and this is my dd. For me saving money was high on the list but I was also intruiged with using the Bronco disc and salvaging what I could since at 170K+ miles the only clutch problem I had was the explosive Hockey puck OEM disc which left me stranded at 2:30 am 25miles from home on the side of a highway....
No problems since everything looks good and Ive checked torque on all my
bolts.
OK, I also use the Italian clutch disc. I like it. It has a little more "grab" from start and the disc is thicker than the Sachs stock. 2 years now and it seems to get better the more I drive
I ended up not buying a sachs clutch and went with the aftermarket made in italy one. I will most definitely post up feedback on it once it is in the car driving around.
I did not use a tranny jack, just a floorjack with a nice big chunk of 4x4 wood to brace it and balanced it and popeye'd that out of there. 3 cans of spinach prior to doing it.
I did not use a tranny jack, just a floorjack with a nice big chunk of 4x4 wood to brace it and balanced it and popeye'd that out of there. 3 cans of spinach prior to doing it.
FINALLY
I am not convinced this is a good idea because of the work involved to change the disc.
BUT, if you want cheap...
http://www.924board.org/viewtopic.php?t=28264
Are you sure of the quality of the work???
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...expensive.html
John
10-01-2010 | 05:35 PM
#43
Cruisin'
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 9
Likes: 1
Hey John no need to be an a-hole man, as I stated Ive done several clutch jobs. With the knowledge that I "ALREADY" have I just needed to blast through the clutch section to see what it entails. NOT A BIG DEAL, these cars are no different then anyother car in principle. No I did not have a "precision grind" on the flywheel, I do not and from the condition of the flywheel nor did any of the previous owners of my vehicle ride the clutch and cause "visible" discoloration which would be a hot spot. I did a quick sanding disc resurface and away I went. The PP was slightly warped and took me some time to true it. In my case the clutch was fine till the HOCKEY puck exploded.
As I stated it took me only 4 hours to get to the clutch components and 2 to put everything back and drop the car. As I SAID 6 HOURS EASY if I had the parts new and ready to go. Still this was and will always be a DAY project.
WTF would I do a "precision" anything on a f*cking $3500 car? If I had $10k or more invested in the purchase of a car it sure as hell wouldnt have been a 944 nor would I reuse parts.
As I stated it took me only 4 hours to get to the clutch components and 2 to put everything back and drop the car. As I SAID 6 HOURS EASY if I had the parts new and ready to go. Still this was and will always be a DAY project.
WTF would I do a "precision" anything on a f*cking $3500 car? If I had $10k or more invested in the purchase of a car it sure as hell wouldnt have been a 944 nor would I reuse parts.
10-01-2010 | 05:45 PM
#44
Pro
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 522
Likes: 0
From: Redmond, Oregon
I don't believe he is trying to be an "a-hole" to anyone. John is quite informative, on many forums, and would rather see people save some headache and go through the movements more smoothly than people get frustrated at the jobs.
10-01-2010 | 06:42 PM
#45
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,622
Likes: 23
From: Colorado
The 968 is half the time due to the bellhousing access. On the 944, the tranny needs to come out and slide the torque tube back, then remove the bellhousing. IIRC mitchell manual lists it as 12 hours on an NA last I checked and about 16 on a turbo, I think clark's garage says 16 on an NA and 18-20 on a turbo which to my knowledge is Porsche's book time. I can knock a turbo clutch out in 4 hours on jackstands if people stay out of my way.....but i've done dozens and dozens and dozens of clutch jobs on 944's, and have a much bigger tool selection than most....it greatly speeds up the time when you know exactly what tool you need for what bolt. I typically split book time wich what I can do it in with the customer which ends up at about 8 hours. I make a little extra for knowing the job and they save a little bit for me knowing the job.
First time around, expect 12-16 hours laying on your back.
Oh and it will greatly speed up your time if you can have a guy NOT under the car that can just sit there and hand you tools. Having to crawl back and forth under the car will not only slow you up, but I promise your body will feel it worse the next couple of days.
First time around, expect 12-16 hours laying on your back.
Oh and it will greatly speed up your time if you can have a guy NOT under the car that can just sit there and hand you tools. Having to crawl back and forth under the car will not only slow you up, but I promise your body will feel it worse the next couple of days.
fastest ive done a turbo clutch is 6 hours using air tools
fastest ive done a na clutch is 5 hours using air