Tom Pultz

[quote]Originally posted by *Rothmans*:
I don't think you can compare adjustable dampers like the Koni sports or racing types especially, to the stock dampers.<hr></blockquote>Why not? People fit the Koni sports all the time and a very similar shock was an option from the factory. The Koni yellows are a huge improvement over the stock shocks, which are just plain lousy.
[quote]I was encouraged by his theory, as I do not like a really stiff suspension.<hr></blockquote>By a Buick
[quote]And I think your overly stiff rear 28 mm torsion bars will overpower your spindly 250 # front springs.<hr></blockquote>Overly stiff? I don't think so. 28mm bars are not that stiff. The wheel rate is only about 250ish lb/in and they should be a very good match for the front springs, which are not at all "spindly" for street use considering they are much stiffer than what came on the car.
[quote]Stiff springs guarantee you harshness and chattering all day long<hr></blockquote>You must have been riding in too many riced-out Hondas. Stiff springs do not guarantee anything by themselves. You have to consider the whole combination of spring, damper, and sway bar. If you fit stiff springs with stock dampers the ride will be horrible because you'll have an underdamped, oversprung condition that will jiggle and bounce around a lot. If you have the proper damping for the spring rate you can fit some surprisingly stiff springs and still maintain an acceptable ride. I'd say my springs are reasonably stiff (300# front, 24mm torsion + 275# helper), but I think my ride is just fine. Stiff? Yes. Harsh? No.

Sway bars don't do anything to control weight transfer during acceleration or braking. That's entirely up to the springs. If you like rear end squat and front end dive, then by all means fit soft springs. [quote]But then again, it's all personal opinion....<hr></blockquote>How true, how true.

luckett

Thanks Skip,

I'm not so concerned about the look as I am about the balance of the car once I bolt everything up. I guess I'll just put the stuff on at half stiff and see how she rides! As long as the balance is good and shock settings are properly matched to the spring rates, knowing the actual torsion bar rate is not so important.

I prefer that the car be on the stiff side. After a few years racing karts, its difficult to like a soft suspension!

*Michael.*

I have finally made my final decision (and got approval from the wife)

Purchasing at the first of next week....

968 M030 Bars Front and Rear
250lb Weltmeister Springs (already have)
Koni Sports
28mm Torsion bars
Cambermeister Strut tower brace


That is about it for now.

Skip,
Thanks for all the help through the past months of my not being able to decide what I want. Which included selling the car to buy a 951 BTW. I have gotten so much useful information about the suspension setup on these cars. I can't wait to get my parts!
Jon (ECPUNK) and I are going to install everything. I have a feeling there will be some Torsion Bar install questions posted by me.

Well back to class for me....SCHOOL SUCKS
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

Robby

Michael,

Let us know how it turns out- I'm considering a VERY similar set-up for my Turbo...

As for the 25.5mm t-bars w/250lb springs- that would be way to soft in the rear, based on what I've been advised. I agree w/everything that Tom said in his last reply. Actually, I've even been advised by one suspension guru to use 29mm t-bars if I go w/250lb springs. Oh well, there are lots of conflicting opinions on the suspension set-ups of our cars out there- it can really get confusing. I don't see how some of these people can get by w/such opposing set-ups and still be competitive...

Skip

[quote]Originally posted by Robby:
<strong>I don't see how some of these people can get by w/such opposing set-ups and still be competitive...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Tires! Look at tire wear, temps, etc... this is the path to handling zen As stated in most reliable sources [books, with words 'n stuff], any car can go fast in the hands of an experienced driver... it's a matter of how long the tires last and how consistent the lap times are. Kind of the idea behind some military jets... like the F4... proof that rocks CAN fly, given enough thrust and a determined pilot

Skip

Danno

I think a lot of you guys are trying to find the one ideal answer as if there is such a thing. Vehicle dynamics have numerous inter-dependent and independent factors at work. As such, there's no one perfect combination of front-springs and rear torsion-bars that will automatically give you the fastest lap times. Just changing tire brands and pressures between two identical cars would yield a different optimal spring/TB combination. Not to mention weight distributions from stripping/not stripping the interior (most of 400lbs removed from my car is from the rear for 56/44 F/R balance).

Then there's the driver's style, track conditions, ambient temperatures, relative humidity, time of day and even phase of the moon makes a difference in which combination of springs/TB works best at any given time and place. As such you'll see a wide variation of combinations used by different cars. It's best to keep a log book and track your lap times on the same tracks after each and every change. Here's some samples for our consideration:

*Rothmans*

Hey Danno:
That is a really great chart. And an even better explanation on what factors influence faster lap times. It was explained to me by a seasoned racer that your mods were not measured in dollars, but in how many tenths of a second per lap it would improve your times.
Also it was explained that a softer set up is better to learn and improve on, where a stiff set up is somewhat unforgiving for the novice.
<img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
I think that most listers want a balanced set up for their particular need to get started, so giving general set ups for our applications helps us all.
I think instead of "what to do", some of us (me included) need to know WHAT NOT TO DO!

<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

eclou

Danno, regarding the adjustability of the 968 M030 rear bar, you could have tried setting it up with one hole soft, one medium for an intermediate setting. We do that alot with the Eibach sways on the E36M3's to get increased adjustability beyond the supplied 2 holes. That would have given you 5 possible rear settings on the 3 hole set-up.

Eugene

*Michael.*

That seems like it would make the setup uneven...One side would have more leverage on the bar then the other. Am I not thinking of this in the right way?

PorscheG96

[quote]Originally posted by Michael Adkins:
<strong>That seems like it would make the setup uneven...One side would have more leverage on the bar then the other. Am I not thinking of this in the right way?</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's what I'm thinkin' too. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Danno

"you could have tried setting it up with one hole soft, one medium for an intermediate setting"

Are you saying adjusting the swaybar differently on each side? This is weight-jacking and will cause understeer in left-turns and oversteer in right-turns, or vice-versa...

With just about any swaybar (stock ones too), you can make a drop-link that clamps onto (rather than bolt through) the bar and gives you infinitely fine adjustability.

Danno

"I think instead of "what to do", some of us (me included) need to know WHAT NOT TO DO! "

Yes, we forget the 'key objective' at times and focus a lot of time and money on the equipment. That is, the 'key objective' is the one thing, that if accomplished, would give us 80% of our goals. If our goal is fast lap times, then I think the 'key objective' definitely has to be track time and practice; working on the driver. This alone, makes much, much more of a difference than working on the car (I haven't seen this lately, so I'll bring it up again).

One of the measures to gauge the driver is consistency in lap times. If you can get all of your laps withing 0.15 seconds of each other in a 30-minute track session, then yes, you might benefit from an improvement in your equipment.

However, most of the time, I see people piling on tons of equipment mods (like the the ones listed obove, and in this thread: <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=15&t=005182" target="_blank">Weltmeister swaybar noises</a>). All these mods are good for 1-2 seconds per 60-second lap. And yet, the driver has a 4 second variation in his lap times...

It's kinda like one of those toothpaste or drug commercials where they say, "MediCrackXX has been shown to reduce occurences of bed-wetting by 1.2%", yet the fine-print says there's a 25% confidence window in testing variations...heh, heh...

That said, by far the best equipment upgrade you can do is in the TIRES. Going to R-compound tires like the Yokohama A032R, Hoosiers, Kumho V700/Victoracers are good for 3-5 seconds per 60-second lap, or twice the improvements of all your suspension mods combined.

eclou

Remeber guys the sway bar would freely spin if the end links were disconnected. The holes are to set a pre-load on the bar. That load stays the same - i.e. constant throughout the entire length - since the bar is continuous. So, it does not matter how "asymmetric" the set-up is. For example if two guys are each holding an end of the same bungee cord, and one guy pulls a little harder, would you expect the tension in the cord to be unequal on each end?

Eugene

Danno

Except that the 'length' that matters is the distance from the end-link clamp-point to the swaybar's pivot axis (aka arm-length).

Being unequal on each end would change the leverage that occur from one arm to the other as the body leans... There would be more resistance to lean in one direction vs. the other.

odurandina

there's some interesting info on this thread...

also pulling a few posts from an old 968 thread that died out...

as Amber Lamps alluded to, my 968 arrived in California with my newly acquired front Weltmeister sway bar MIA.

so, I'm starting from scratch...

I have this rear Weltmeister. don't have the slightest clue as to whether or not I should replace the front Weltmeister or get an M030.

I'm attempting to learn suspension/swaybars/ 101 for the street running oem suspension.

my thinking is that it would be advantageous to add just a bit more oversteer to the car.

wondering if I'm over-rating that.

and if the added weight up front via the v8 may already be helping.

for the street attempting to stiffen up the roll in high speed cornering.... and stop there.

does anyone know a general combination starting with oem shocks in the front and adjustable shocks in the rear - that will help a car to understeer the least??

does anyone know if at what point you're running either a 968 M030 or Weltmeister front bar that you begin seeing cracking of the mounting components ball joint/caster blocks wearing??


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