Notices
924/931/944/951/968 Forum Porsche 924, 924S, 931, 944, 944S, 944S2, 951, and 968 discussion, how-to guides, and technical help. (1976-1995)
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

eng starts, but won't idle (runs rich)

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 05-08-2003, 09:34 AM
  #1  
James86-951
Pro
Thread Starter
 
James86-951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Woodstock,GA
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post eng starts, but won't idle (runs rich)

I have recently found and repaired a large vacuum leak in my 951.(The oil/air separator vacuum line.) The eng had previously run very lean. (I also installed Autothority Chips before the vacuum leak was discovered.) The eng will now not stay cranked without patting the gas pedal. I have been through the manual and tested all of the fuel related components.(AFM, temp sensors, o2 sensor, and fuel pressure) I came accross a statement in the manual about hard codes in the computer that can only be cleared by disconnecting the battery. I have done that and cleaned the injectors last night. (I will put it back together tonight.)

My next step is to return the original chips back in the computers and see if there was a bug of some type.

Does anyone have any other suggestions?
Old 05-08-2003, 09:57 AM
  #2  
Tom Carson
Burning Brakes
 
Tom Carson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: new york
Posts: 1,141
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

you didn't mention the TPS but I assume it was tested ok?

(wonder who will be the 1st to recommend putting the vacuum leak back?)
Old 05-08-2003, 10:02 AM
  #3  
James86-951
Pro
Thread Starter
 
James86-951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Woodstock,GA
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Yes, the TPS was tested and the eng is in time. It backfired through the AFM, so I thought the t-belt had jumped. I have had to clean the spark plugs twice now.

The vacuum leak wouldn't be so bad if it didn't also create a boost leak. (aka my wife's minivan is faster than the 951!)
Old 05-08-2003, 11:24 AM
  #4  
billybones
Burning Brakes
 
billybones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Utica Michigan
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Perhaps a reference sensor. one is for start and the other is for running. I can not remember for sure, but if the running one goes out it refers back to the start one. Thus to much gas? Just a guess with a foggy recollection to the problem..
Old 05-08-2003, 11:54 AM
  #5  
James86-951
Pro
Thread Starter
 
James86-951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Woodstock,GA
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

It will run if the gas pedal is pressed. I didn't think of the reference sensor. It's on the list to check, but I thought it wouldn't allow it to crank. I will check that tonight.
Old 05-08-2003, 11:58 AM
  #6  
James86-951
Pro
Thread Starter
 
James86-951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Woodstock,GA
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Is there a way to check it without a scope? Porsche has pretty pictures of waveforms, but I don't have an oscilloscope.
Old 05-08-2003, 12:15 PM
  #7  
billybones
Burning Brakes
 
billybones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Utica Michigan
Posts: 1,088
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

My foggy recollection has to do with previous posts on this site. It must be in the archives somewhere. All I remember is that one sensor starts the car and the other is for running. most times the start one gets creamed cause it has the shim on it. Thus the many posts on no starts. But the other one is the run sensor... Maybe it just got unplugged durring the replacement of the leak? they are both located at the back of the cam housing... HTH.
Old 05-08-2003, 12:18 PM
  #8  
Perry 951
Addict
Rennlist Member

 
Perry 951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 6,915
Likes: 0
Received 70 Likes on 53 Posts
Post

Have you removed and cleaned the idle control valve? If it is stuck closed, it can cause idle issues. This is how the stock setup regulates idle speed.

Remove the vac line from the manifold (the one connected to the ICV) and shoot some WD-40 into it. This may free it and resume operation.
Old 05-08-2003, 12:43 PM
  #9  
James86-951
Pro
Thread Starter
 
James86-951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Woodstock,GA
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

The idle control valve was replaced about 6 months ago when the engine was freshened with new headgasket, belts, rod bearings, etc.

Oddly enough, the new valve didn't make any difference, that's why I went back over the vacuum system to look for problems. I touched the oil/air separator vacuum line and it moved easily.

Now that I have been thinking about those sensors. I did notice the plugs were damaged and not differentiated. Would the crossing of those two plugs cause a running problem?
Old 05-08-2003, 12:47 PM
  #10  
Perry 951
Addict
Rennlist Member

 
Perry 951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 6,915
Likes: 0
Received 70 Likes on 53 Posts
Post

Crossing them will not allow the engine to run at all.

Have you adjusted your idle correctly by disabling the ICV?
Old 05-08-2003, 12:53 PM
  #11  
James86-951
Pro
Thread Starter
 
James86-951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Woodstock,GA
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

Yes, I put a jumper wire in the test port between C and B. (center hole with hole on right of center.) I followed an old procedure from Danno.

I have opened the throttle body bypass screw to the point of it coming out. The AFM bypass screw has been opened substantially as well. (I had to close it to get the engine to idle well previously.)

There is also a good chance I have really fouled things up and need to reset the adjustments. Is there any way to make the LED diagnostic tool specified in the manual? I really need to get the car to talk to me.
Old 05-08-2003, 12:54 PM
  #12  
Tom Carson
Burning Brakes
 
Tom Carson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: new york
Posts: 1,141
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

the reference & speed sensors can do weird things

the reference sensor tell the DME unit when to 'start' the current going in the coil (crank angle) while the speed sensor calulates the rpm and with other sensors lets the DME 'stop' the current going to the coil...in other words, the spark 'dwell' (length)

they do get 'flaky'...sometimes just pulling them out and getting little bit of metal off them may help...were they adjusted recently?
Old 05-08-2003, 12:58 PM
  #13  
Perry 951
Addict
Rennlist Member

 
Perry 951's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 6,915
Likes: 0
Received 70 Likes on 53 Posts
Post

Strange indeed. Does it have a miss at all? How does it run under load above 1500?

The LED is simple, Danno has distructions on his site. 3.6V LED inserted into the test port should take care of you... IIRC. Can't remember if you needed a resistor with it or not.
Old 05-08-2003, 01:12 PM
  #14  
Vaino
Racer
 
Vaino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 298
Received 40 Likes on 16 Posts
Post

The boost problem with this richness, may be an exhaust leak. A cracked header or crossover will bleed pressure, and cause the oxygen sensor to enrich the mixture.
Old 05-08-2003, 02:30 PM
  #15  
James86-951
Pro
Thread Starter
 
James86-951's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Woodstock,GA
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Post

The sensors have never been adjusted as far as I know. Is there a procedure in the manual or on this site?

Before the problem, the engine was running weak and had an erratic idle. (high and low) I noticed the boost levels high in 1st and low in second under hard acceleration. If you accelerated hard, you would have to wait a second before you would get good boost again. This symptom fits the loose hose that I found.

The car never missed under a load and the exhaust system is in good shape except for the above mentioned problem which may be a result of an iffy wastegate.


Quick Reply: eng starts, but won't idle (runs rich)



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 05:04 AM.