Joining the opposition??(911?)
03-04-2002, 04:52 PM
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Joining the opposition??(911?)
Well, I guess that is not a fair tagline--actually I am debating joining the air-cooled sector of the Porsche clan. For those who don't know, I had a 79 924(first p-car) and currently an 86 951(almost sold)--I was going to replace with an 88 Silver Rose, or 928, or even another 951, or an old B-body mopar(either Super Bee or RR). I have since ruled out the Mopar(need something practical enough for a daily driver)However, I have found a 911 SC Targa(in the rennlist classifieds) within my price range.
I have always liked the styling of the 78-83 SC w/o a whaletail, I (sort-of) know the 911 weakpoints, valve adjustments, head studs, rusty pans, targa tops, etc..and although on the high-end for an SC--16K--the car appears clean w only 65K original miles. I, of course, would do the typical PPI, carfax, records, etc. I was just curious for those of you who have(or had) both a 911 and a 951, what would I be getting myself into??
Spring is almost here, and I am getting antsy. Any thoughts/input is welcome.
I have always liked the styling of the 78-83 SC w/o a whaletail, I (sort-of) know the 911 weakpoints, valve adjustments, head studs, rusty pans, targa tops, etc..and although on the high-end for an SC--16K--the car appears clean w only 65K original miles. I, of course, would do the typical PPI, carfax, records, etc. I was just curious for those of you who have(or had) both a 911 and a 951, what would I be getting myself into??
Spring is almost here, and I am getting antsy. Any thoughts/input is welcome.
03-04-2002, 05:49 PM
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Nordschleife Master
i actually started the other way around. I was looking for a nice sc, but only found DEFUNCT examples. Then I happened across my current car. Although the 951 is WONDERFUL and both cars can apeal to an individual, you're either a 944 guy or a 911 guy. I know that as soon as I can afford one I am gonna get an early 930. 
Test drive everything in sight. Have fun.
Test drive everything in sight. Have fun.
03-05-2002, 01:02 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by booster:
<strong>Have you ever driven a 911?....you may change your mind after a test drive and stay with the 951.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I couldn't agree less. What on earth would make you say that?
That said, my boss bought a 1980 SC with 80k miles on it, for about the same price.(16k) It's pretty much perfect, very very well cared for. he's had very very good luck with it, and just came back from a 4k mile road trip in it. I think they're gorgeous cars, and if you find the right one, drive it correctly (read: not like your grandma would) and take care to check on things before they break (true for any car, of course) they can be very reliable, and very very fun.
<strong>Have you ever driven a 911?....you may change your mind after a test drive and stay with the 951.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I couldn't agree less. What on earth would make you say that?
That said, my boss bought a 1980 SC with 80k miles on it, for about the same price.(16k) It's pretty much perfect, very very well cared for. he's had very very good luck with it, and just came back from a 4k mile road trip in it. I think they're gorgeous cars, and if you find the right one, drive it correctly (read: not like your grandma would) and take care to check on things before they break (true for any car, of course) they can be very reliable, and very very fun.
03-05-2002, 01:08 AM
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Good point Booster. My Dad used to work at a Porsche dealership in the early 70's and got to drive hundreds of different Porsche's with different options. Although he loved the power of the 911s, in the end he would have taken the 914 since it was by far the most fun to drive. However, some people swear by the 911 and its design. And if you get one, never never never let completely off the gas in a hard turn <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" /> . I'm told that spinning the 911 on test drives was an all too common occurence. As for the 930, they are powerful cars but can be quite a handful on the track with all that turbo lag. I've heard of many people racing these who go into a turn and would hold the throttle at the lag point until they are out of the turn since the lag is so powerful 
03-05-2002, 10:39 AM
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I would think that the best way you know what you are getting into would be to hang on the 911 site for a while. dig thru the archives.. Just NO WHALE TAIL... that is UGLY....
03-05-2002, 12:18 PM
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Eric,
I usually stay out of these kinds of posts but I cannot sit idle while people who have never owned a 911 slam the car. As you can see from my sig I have had both a 911 and currently own a 944. Personally, I prefer the 911 in almost every aspect. The build quality was better (body fit and finish). I also like the look of the car better. As far as performance, my 911 was much faster than my S2 and felt more stable at high speed than my S2. The handling at the limit in the S2 is more neutral and it returns a slightly faster time in the slalom (in stock form) than my 911 and it has better A/C. Which would I prefer to drive on a day to day, my 911. It took effort to drive that car but it was rewarding. Which would I prefer to drive on a track, my 911 hands down. One of the reasons is the "lack of a sensation of speed". In the 911 you do not feel like you are going that fast. In the 944 you feel the speed you are going. This lack of sensation of speed allowed me (I don't know about anybody else) to enter corners faster and carry more speed through turns.
As far as letting off of the throttle in the apex of a turn is concerned...it is not a big deal unless you are "at the limit". And who drives like that anyway??? I drove my car very fast most every where I went and routinely took on-ramps and off-ramps at 2 to 2.5 times the posted speed and only once did I encounter the fringe of lift throttle oversteer. Pushing a 944 too far too fast will get you screwed as well.
The complaint that the unintitiated have regarding the 911 is that it requires too much skill for the novice driver to realize maximum performance from the car. It requires a great deal of skill and feel to perform a controlled 4 wheel drift in a 911 without losing it. (not that I consider myself some expert driver)
Bottom line: it all comes down to what you want. Don't judge the entire model line based on a poorly maintained version. The SC is not the best version of the 911, but it is a good car. Check to see if the previous owner upgraded to 'carrera tensioners' and has had a "pop-off" valve installed on the airbox. Also, highly scrutinize the transmission. If you could afford to buy an 87-89 Carrera I would suggest that. The last 3 years of the Carrera are truly the last of the "true" 911 (no Power steering or power brakes) and are the best of the breed. You get a better clutch, the G50 Transimission, better brakes, better A/C, and a more powerful and more reliable engine. Good luck to you Eric. If the SC you are looking at is a good example I think you will enjoy your ownership.
***Just in case you are wondering, I only sold my 911 because I was moving from Florida to Maryland and I don't have a garage up here. I couldn't bear to have the 911 in the weather because it was a 25th Anniversary model (1 of 60 in Black Satin Metallic).
Regards,
Max
I usually stay out of these kinds of posts but I cannot sit idle while people who have never owned a 911 slam the car. As you can see from my sig I have had both a 911 and currently own a 944. Personally, I prefer the 911 in almost every aspect. The build quality was better (body fit and finish). I also like the look of the car better. As far as performance, my 911 was much faster than my S2 and felt more stable at high speed than my S2. The handling at the limit in the S2 is more neutral and it returns a slightly faster time in the slalom (in stock form) than my 911 and it has better A/C. Which would I prefer to drive on a day to day, my 911. It took effort to drive that car but it was rewarding. Which would I prefer to drive on a track, my 911 hands down. One of the reasons is the "lack of a sensation of speed". In the 911 you do not feel like you are going that fast. In the 944 you feel the speed you are going. This lack of sensation of speed allowed me (I don't know about anybody else) to enter corners faster and carry more speed through turns.
As far as letting off of the throttle in the apex of a turn is concerned...it is not a big deal unless you are "at the limit". And who drives like that anyway??? I drove my car very fast most every where I went and routinely took on-ramps and off-ramps at 2 to 2.5 times the posted speed and only once did I encounter the fringe of lift throttle oversteer. Pushing a 944 too far too fast will get you screwed as well.
The complaint that the unintitiated have regarding the 911 is that it requires too much skill for the novice driver to realize maximum performance from the car. It requires a great deal of skill and feel to perform a controlled 4 wheel drift in a 911 without losing it. (not that I consider myself some expert driver)
Bottom line: it all comes down to what you want. Don't judge the entire model line based on a poorly maintained version. The SC is not the best version of the 911, but it is a good car. Check to see if the previous owner upgraded to 'carrera tensioners' and has had a "pop-off" valve installed on the airbox. Also, highly scrutinize the transmission. If you could afford to buy an 87-89 Carrera I would suggest that. The last 3 years of the Carrera are truly the last of the "true" 911 (no Power steering or power brakes) and are the best of the breed. You get a better clutch, the G50 Transimission, better brakes, better A/C, and a more powerful and more reliable engine. Good luck to you Eric. If the SC you are looking at is a good example I think you will enjoy your ownership.
***Just in case you are wondering, I only sold my 911 because I was moving from Florida to Maryland and I don't have a garage up here. I couldn't bear to have the 911 in the weather because it was a 25th Anniversary model (1 of 60 in Black Satin Metallic).
Regards,
Max
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03-05-2002, 12:38 PM
#8
For about 6 months I had an 86 951 and an 89 930 at the same time. The 930 is box stock and the 951 was a PCA club racer turned street car. They are both a joy to drive. That 951 was nearly as fast as the 930, but a heck of alot more comfortable and forgiving to drive every day, even with the stiff suspension. The 951 is smooth and balanced, the 930 is violent. If you need to drive it daily, the 951 would be my choice over a 911. Even better would be a 968. The comfort in older (pre-1990) 911's just does not compare to a 944/951/968.
03-05-2002, 12:45 PM
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Eric: try to avoid comparing apples to oranges. The 911 and the 944(951) are truly different cars coming out from under the same roof. As my mechanic likes to say, same father, different mothers!
I've driven both on street and track. I currently own a 944 as a long-distance cruiser and trip car that I occasionally track. I like the comfort and sizing of the 944 (I'm 6'4" tall and 200+ lbs., too big for the 911 on long trips). The comfort of the 944's can't really be beat by any other P-Car, in my opinion.
The 944 is a heavy car that seems to have driver input lag when tracking (kinda like driving in slow motion) as compared to the 911's and 914's. But comfort, reliability, and repair costs really make 944's a great comfort/cruiser/daily driver performance car.
For quick, powerful, immediate-response cars, the 911's are really impressive. I'll track a 911 any day vs a 944. The steering and throttle inputs are immediate, the brakes are well balanced to the power and weight. They do tend to over-steer a bit if you lift in a corner but....WHY ARE YOU LIFTING IN A CORNER?!?! On the other hand, the 944's tend to push (understeer) if you go in to a corner too fast, so what do you handle better; a car pushing when it should turn, or a loose rear end/butt-swing in or coming out of a turn? It depends on your driving skill and experience.
Comfort-wise the 911 SC's SUCK if your taller than 6'2", as compared to the 944. Those Third Reich engineers couldn't get Hitler off their minds when designing the early P-cars and it showed. Ironically, I'm German, too. Just one of the giant blond-haired types. I'd take a day-long Chinese water torture before I take a day-long drive in an unmodified 911 SC interior. Also, the 911's remind me of a go-cart when driving, a tad bouncy and noisy. I like all that in a racer, but not a cruiser.
So, what's your preference: racer or cruiser. They are, essentially, 2 different cars.
My 2 cents. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
I've driven both on street and track. I currently own a 944 as a long-distance cruiser and trip car that I occasionally track. I like the comfort and sizing of the 944 (I'm 6'4" tall and 200+ lbs., too big for the 911 on long trips). The comfort of the 944's can't really be beat by any other P-Car, in my opinion.
The 944 is a heavy car that seems to have driver input lag when tracking (kinda like driving in slow motion) as compared to the 911's and 914's. But comfort, reliability, and repair costs really make 944's a great comfort/cruiser/daily driver performance car.
For quick, powerful, immediate-response cars, the 911's are really impressive. I'll track a 911 any day vs a 944. The steering and throttle inputs are immediate, the brakes are well balanced to the power and weight. They do tend to over-steer a bit if you lift in a corner but....WHY ARE YOU LIFTING IN A CORNER?!?! On the other hand, the 944's tend to push (understeer) if you go in to a corner too fast, so what do you handle better; a car pushing when it should turn, or a loose rear end/butt-swing in or coming out of a turn? It depends on your driving skill and experience.
Comfort-wise the 911 SC's SUCK if your taller than 6'2", as compared to the 944. Those Third Reich engineers couldn't get Hitler off their minds when designing the early P-cars and it showed. Ironically, I'm German, too. Just one of the giant blond-haired types. I'd take a day-long Chinese water torture before I take a day-long drive in an unmodified 911 SC interior. Also, the 911's remind me of a go-cart when driving, a tad bouncy and noisy. I like all that in a racer, but not a cruiser.
So, what's your preference: racer or cruiser. They are, essentially, 2 different cars.
My 2 cents. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
03-05-2002, 12:46 PM
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I might agree to that as well. I have never owned a 930 though. I have driven one and the turbo is more "on-off" than a 951. The boost can come on very hard and suddenly in a 911 turbo. But hey, that is why Porsche made different models. Opinions and tastes vary. <img src="graemlins/wave.gif" border="0" alt="[byebye]" />
03-05-2002, 12:53 PM
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Thanks to all for the replies. Although, I have to disagree with your statement Luke, "you are either a 911 guy or a 944 guy", in a perfect world, I would own one of every Porsche model, I think they all have something different to offer.
Max, yours is the type of comparison for which I was looking. I know the SC isn't as good as the later Carreras, but for my price range, I would be in the bottom percentile of Carreras, wheras I am in the upper reaches for SCs. I have only driven 2 911s. One was an 86, which I test drove briefly around some parking lots, the other was a C2 cab. which I rented in Las Vegas for 24 hrs. The C2 was a blast, I really wailed on that thing around town and opened her up in the desert. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
The pop-off valve and Carrera tensioners were two updates I was aware of(from the Market reports). I am seriously considering the targa. I guess being Porsche-less really affects your thinking <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
Thanks again,
Max, yours is the type of comparison for which I was looking. I know the SC isn't as good as the later Carreras, but for my price range, I would be in the bottom percentile of Carreras, wheras I am in the upper reaches for SCs. I have only driven 2 911s. One was an 86, which I test drove briefly around some parking lots, the other was a C2 cab. which I rented in Las Vegas for 24 hrs. The C2 was a blast, I really wailed on that thing around town and opened her up in the desert. <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
The pop-off valve and Carrera tensioners were two updates I was aware of(from the Market reports). I am seriously considering the targa. I guess being Porsche-less really affects your thinking <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
Thanks again,
03-05-2002, 11:04 PM
#12
I wasn't stating that the 911 is a bad car as I have been around many of them but for a daily driver the 951 would come out on top, I have done a many-a-mile in the 911's and while there fun to drive and have plenty of power the comfort zone has much to be desired (IMO).
03-05-2002, 11:45 PM
#13
Nordschleife Master
If you're test driving and you hear a "flapping sound" at high rev's under WOT, stay away from the car. This is actually the head's flapping on/off the jug. It will need head studs!!! VERY pricey if not DIY. I was qouted at $4,800, but I should have bought the car n/e way and did it myself. Now that I think about it, it would have been great fun. (especially on such a clean car!) I want a 911 so bad. (930) 
03-06-2002, 01:22 AM
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