Winter driving (Long)
03-04-2002, 12:25 PM
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Winter driving (Long)
Well, Illinois got its first actual taste of winter this weekend. 2-3 big snows, nice big drifts, ice, all that good stuff. And guess what, this was the one weekend that I had to drive ~400 miles! First time really out in the snow for the P-car.
Friday, I budgeted 4 hours for what's usually a 2.5 hour drive, 185 miles or so. It wasn't snowing anymore, but snow was blowing across the interstate for a 50-mile stretch south of Kanakakee on I-57. Even driving 30-40, I lost the rear end a couple of times when I used a little bit too much brake. I'd slide about 20 feet and then recover; no big deal but not much fun either. (I saw ~100 cars and 6 semis in the ditch; the tow trucks were busy that day). I get to Chicago, where they've salted the road, the rest of the drive is without incident.
I get to drill, we get our weapons and get on the bus, our bus driver almost kills us by falling asleep, we get to Fort McCoy, freeze our nuts off all day Saturday, come back. (Seriously folks, it was so cold that we had a machine gun freeze solid--actually turn into a block of ice, with a live round in the chamber. EOD had to come and blow $8700 worth of M2 .50cal in place.)
Sunday, we got delayed by a bunch of stupid stuff and didn't get cut loose until 7pm. No one had plowed the parking lot, so it had frozen solid; 3 Marines had to push to get me up the little ramp to the gate. It was already dark out when I started back home; the first ~100 miles went fine. Roads were clear and dry, not too much traffic.
Just south of I-80, I got stuck behind two salt trucks doing ~15 mph for TWO HOURS. I discovered then that the heat in my car doesn't work at less than ~20mph.
The salt trucks turn around, the road ahead looks clear, but now there are no lights other than my Hella H-4s so I decide to drive the last 70 miles or so under the speed limit, and start going 55.
I come around a curve, see the road covered in snow about ~30 meters ahead. Downshift to 3rd and brake hard--I wanted to get rid of as much speed as possible on the dry pavement--get to the snow doing about 35, off the brake as soon as I'm in the snow, steering wheel straight.
I thought I was going to be ok, speedo's falling through 30 mph, I ease off the throttle. This causes enough engine braking to pull the rear end loose (30 in 3rd!). Rear end slides left, car heaads toward right shoulder, I clutch in and countersteer, some guy blows by me in an Explorer doing ~55, I slide off the road onto the shoulder doing about 5 mph.
I was thinking that I'd done pretty well, I'd just throw it in reverse and drive slow until the road cleared up again. No good, it was stuck solid. Right rear had just barely come off the road and had 2feet of snow between it and the ground. (At this point I looked up and saw that the guy in the explorer had managed to roll his car, it was on its side in the ditch, so at least I was better off than he was).
The State Troopers found us both out there (the Explorer driver was fine, he climbed out and walked to my car to wait) gave the guy a ride somewhere and called a tow for me (AAA had told me 8-12 hours, I told them to forget it).
Tow guy says the "only solid thing I can reach on your car is that" and hooks his winch up to the left side A-arm. I didn't like that much, but seeing as how the rest of the car was buried in the snow I didn't have much choice. He pulled me out, charged me a hundred bucks and sent me on my way. The road cleared up 4 miles south of that and I was able to do 65 the rest of the way home.
So. I'm pretty experienced driving in the snow, but not in P-cars in the snow. Anything I could have done different? I was thinking about giving it a little throttle during the slide, to get the rear end to come back around, but I figured that either it would 1. only get me driving more sideways or 2. bring the rear end around, meaning that I'd have put the rear wheels in the ditch and wouldn't have had a prayer of getting out by myself.
It didn't feel like I broke anything when I hit, and I checked after the tow guy disconnected, but it was too cold to really look at anything. Tomorrow when I get under the car, what should I look at? Anything subtle that I might have broken and not noticed? (The alignment seemed fine on the drive home).
I'm running Cooper Cobras in 215-60/15. (Not great tires, but the PO put them on and they were brand new when I bought the car).
Friday, I budgeted 4 hours for what's usually a 2.5 hour drive, 185 miles or so. It wasn't snowing anymore, but snow was blowing across the interstate for a 50-mile stretch south of Kanakakee on I-57. Even driving 30-40, I lost the rear end a couple of times when I used a little bit too much brake. I'd slide about 20 feet and then recover; no big deal but not much fun either. (I saw ~100 cars and 6 semis in the ditch; the tow trucks were busy that day). I get to Chicago, where they've salted the road, the rest of the drive is without incident.
I get to drill, we get our weapons and get on the bus, our bus driver almost kills us by falling asleep, we get to Fort McCoy, freeze our nuts off all day Saturday, come back. (Seriously folks, it was so cold that we had a machine gun freeze solid--actually turn into a block of ice, with a live round in the chamber. EOD had to come and blow $8700 worth of M2 .50cal in place.)
Sunday, we got delayed by a bunch of stupid stuff and didn't get cut loose until 7pm. No one had plowed the parking lot, so it had frozen solid; 3 Marines had to push to get me up the little ramp to the gate. It was already dark out when I started back home; the first ~100 miles went fine. Roads were clear and dry, not too much traffic.
Just south of I-80, I got stuck behind two salt trucks doing ~15 mph for TWO HOURS. I discovered then that the heat in my car doesn't work at less than ~20mph.
The salt trucks turn around, the road ahead looks clear, but now there are no lights other than my Hella H-4s so I decide to drive the last 70 miles or so under the speed limit, and start going 55.
I come around a curve, see the road covered in snow about ~30 meters ahead. Downshift to 3rd and brake hard--I wanted to get rid of as much speed as possible on the dry pavement--get to the snow doing about 35, off the brake as soon as I'm in the snow, steering wheel straight.
I thought I was going to be ok, speedo's falling through 30 mph, I ease off the throttle. This causes enough engine braking to pull the rear end loose (30 in 3rd!). Rear end slides left, car heaads toward right shoulder, I clutch in and countersteer, some guy blows by me in an Explorer doing ~55, I slide off the road onto the shoulder doing about 5 mph.
I was thinking that I'd done pretty well, I'd just throw it in reverse and drive slow until the road cleared up again. No good, it was stuck solid. Right rear had just barely come off the road and had 2feet of snow between it and the ground. (At this point I looked up and saw that the guy in the explorer had managed to roll his car, it was on its side in the ditch, so at least I was better off than he was).
The State Troopers found us both out there (the Explorer driver was fine, he climbed out and walked to my car to wait) gave the guy a ride somewhere and called a tow for me (AAA had told me 8-12 hours, I told them to forget it).
Tow guy says the "only solid thing I can reach on your car is that" and hooks his winch up to the left side A-arm. I didn't like that much, but seeing as how the rest of the car was buried in the snow I didn't have much choice. He pulled me out, charged me a hundred bucks and sent me on my way. The road cleared up 4 miles south of that and I was able to do 65 the rest of the way home.
So. I'm pretty experienced driving in the snow, but not in P-cars in the snow. Anything I could have done different? I was thinking about giving it a little throttle during the slide, to get the rear end to come back around, but I figured that either it would 1. only get me driving more sideways or 2. bring the rear end around, meaning that I'd have put the rear wheels in the ditch and wouldn't have had a prayer of getting out by myself.
It didn't feel like I broke anything when I hit, and I checked after the tow guy disconnected, but it was too cold to really look at anything. Tomorrow when I get under the car, what should I look at? Anything subtle that I might have broken and not noticed? (The alignment seemed fine on the drive home).
I'm running Cooper Cobras in 215-60/15. (Not great tires, but the PO put them on and they were brand new when I bought the car).
03-04-2002, 01:57 PM
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I've driven my 968 through 2 NH winters, and I'd say you've pretty much got the right idea. My MO for driving in the snow is to keep the revs very high. If the car starts to understeer, I lift off the trottle, scrubbing the rear wheels with engine braking to cause some corrective oversteer. If I start to oversteer, I just get on the clutch and countersteer. I wouldn't recomend using throttle in low traction situations to correct oversteer.
FYI, I was running Michelin Arctic Alpins in the winter. Combined with the LSD, she was pretty much unstoppable in the snow. This winter I got myself a Toyota 4x4 and was sparing the 968. Unfortunately, I rolled the truck this weekend and she's out of comission until I can straighten the roof enough to get a new windshield in, if I even can.
Cheers,
Tom
FYI, I was running Michelin Arctic Alpins in the winter. Combined with the LSD, she was pretty much unstoppable in the snow. This winter I got myself a Toyota 4x4 and was sparing the 968. Unfortunately, I rolled the truck this weekend and she's out of comission until I can straighten the roof enough to get a new windshield in, if I even can.
Cheers,
Tom
03-04-2002, 02:23 PM
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You need REAL winter tires to drive a 924/944/951/968 in the snow. I had the unfortunate experience of driving 200 miles in a freak blizzard (one of the worse in Alberta history) on 18" Potenza S-02's. There were about 10 heart stopper slides during the trip, but luckily I made it out OK. I swear by my Michellin Alpins in our harsh Canadian winters.
IceWater is right, you need to keep the revs up (3000rpm at least) to keep the car from engine braking off throttle. The effect is much more pronounced on summer tires in the snow/ice. With the right winter tires, driving on snow is a blast and a great way to sharpen your driving skills. I learned to throttle steer my 951 when I decided to drive my car year round.
IceWater is right, you need to keep the revs up (3000rpm at least) to keep the car from engine braking off throttle. The effect is much more pronounced on summer tires in the snow/ice. With the right winter tires, driving on snow is a blast and a great way to sharpen your driving skills. I learned to throttle steer my 951 when I decided to drive my car year round.
03-04-2002, 04:10 PM
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If you really need to do significant winter driving find another set of rims (4) and get them as narrow as you can (within reason). Then find a GOOD winter tire like Alpins or Blizzaks. These are usually VERY soft rubber and will wear out quickly if run year round. Just don't settle for plain old generic snow tires in the rear.
-Bob P.
-Bob P.
03-04-2002, 07:55 PM
#5
Your experience mirrors mine the first winter I had my 84. I got some all-season (Dunlop Qualifiers) tires for it because I thought 50-50 weight should make for ok winter use. I had to make a trip in an ice storm. The trip out was ok but slow. I was driving like you were, the Monte Carlos and Camaros were blasting by. I filled with gas for the trip home nad that may have shifted the balance enough because again like you I was going down a fortunately empty I-35 when I felt the car start to drift towards the center median. Then the back wiggled once or twice and the next thing I know I was doing rotations down the middle of the Ike pulling my seatbelt tight and thinking"So this is what it's like to go in the ditch, I hope I miss those little reflector posts!" After I got to the shoulder I got on the brakes and came to a stop perpendicular to the roadway. I waited for the Semi that was a mile or so back enjoying the show to go by, restarted the engine and went on home about 10 mph slower. It was then I resolved to get a FWD car for winter use.
I think the 944 could have been adjusted for winter use. 4 snow tire and dial in some understeer but it didn't seem worth the trouble to me. If my VW gets hit, I'll be a lot less distressed than if my 944S was the victim. Also I think that many of the qualities that make the Porsche such a joy when it's dry make it too responsive in slippery conditions, on ice I appreciate the bungee cord tie rods on my mother's 78 Nova.
I hope you resisted pointing out to the Explorer guy who flipped and who didn't!
I think the 944 could have been adjusted for winter use. 4 snow tire and dial in some understeer but it didn't seem worth the trouble to me. If my VW gets hit, I'll be a lot less distressed than if my 944S was the victim. Also I think that many of the qualities that make the Porsche such a joy when it's dry make it too responsive in slippery conditions, on ice I appreciate the bungee cord tie rods on my mother's 78 Nova.
I hope you resisted pointing out to the Explorer guy who flipped and who didn't!