Losing to the FWD?
04-10-2003, 03:58 AM
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Losing to the FWD?
Has anyone lost to a FWD in the corners? I know the capabilities of these cars are awesome...but tuned Type Rs can be quite impressive on the track as well. I've had a USDM Type R (stock with only mods to help it breathe), it was a quick car. I know all of you hate the Honda crowd just because there are many that put useless mods thinking their cars will be faster. But honestly, has anyone been humbled by heavily track-tuned FWDs?
04-10-2003, 04:40 AM
#2
Three Wheelin'
I got my doors blown off by a VW Golf at the Nuerburgring. Rollcage and all so I didn't feel too bad. It was also brought in on a trailer. I drove my car to the ring and listened to the stereo... 
04-10-2003, 06:15 AM
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Damn sure, I was humbled by a bunch of POS Saabs from 80s and such (and they weren't turbo..) when I was driving my ex-S in a free track event last year. There was also one Peugeot 106 GTi which absolutely destroyed everybody... but that's probably because the driver was mad:
<img src="http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/asujamaa/kanttaa.jpg" alt=" - " />
It's all about the skills...
So yep, I personally believe in quick FWD cars. However RWD has the traction advantage when you're starting to push serious HP, and of course, 99% of all race cars are RWD (or 4WD) so it can't be that bad
<img src="http://www.cs.helsinki.fi/u/asujamaa/kanttaa.jpg" alt=" - " />
It's all about the skills...
So yep, I personally believe in quick FWD cars. However RWD has the traction advantage when you're starting to push serious HP, and of course, 99% of all race cars are RWD (or 4WD) so it can't be that bad
04-10-2003, 09:42 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Sami951:
<strong> There was also one Peugeot 106 GTi which absolutely destroyed everybody...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well, not everybody <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
<strong> There was also one Peugeot 106 GTi which absolutely destroyed everybody...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well, not everybody <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
04-10-2003, 10:08 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by *Michael.*:
<strong>Hey Sybelix,
How do you have a 1990 US 951? They didn't import them in '90</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hehe, not again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
They did, 144 cars, some sources say, that only
114 951's.
How ever, these are quite rare..
Well, I got one <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />
Go and check it out.
<a href="https://rennlist.com/944values/9683.htm" target="_blank">https://rennlist.com/944values/9683.htm</a>
<strong>Hey Sybelix,
How do you have a 1990 US 951? They didn't import them in '90</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hehe, not again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
They did, 144 cars, some sources say, that only
114 951's.
How ever, these are quite rare..
Well, I got one <img border="0" alt="[byebye]" title="" src="graemlins/wave.gif" />
Go and check it out.
<a href="https://rennlist.com/944values/9683.htm" target="_blank">https://rennlist.com/944values/9683.htm</a>
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04-10-2003, 11:45 AM
#8
Nordschleife Master
HakSeng, skill and experience in the car you're driving has a lot to do with lap times.
On gravel/dirt roads, I can rally the Cavalier like no body's business, because I have LOTS of experience at it. But on the same roads, I'll be super slow with the 951 cuz I haven't gotten used to swinging out the back end - yet.
With experience, and a few mods, you'll be a track king!
(Just remember, no matter how much money you spend, or experience you have, there is always some ******* somewhere with more of both.)
On gravel/dirt roads, I can rally the Cavalier like no body's business, because I have LOTS of experience at it. But on the same roads, I'll be super slow with the 951 cuz I haven't gotten used to swinging out the back end - yet.
With experience, and a few mods, you'll be a track king!
(Just remember, no matter how much money you spend, or experience you have, there is always some ******* somewhere with more of both.)
04-10-2003, 01:36 PM
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Drifting
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by *Michael.*:
<strong>Is the back right tyre off of the ground?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes sir. I also got a quick video clip where the guy passes me and drifts a corner super smooth... with an FWD car
<strong>Is the back right tyre off of the ground?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes sir. I also got a quick video clip where the guy passes me and drifts a corner super smooth... with an FWD car
04-10-2003, 04:47 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Sami951:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by *Michael.*:
<strong>Is the back right tyre off of the ground?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes sir. I also got a quick video clip where the guy passes me and drifts a corner super smooth... with an FWD car</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well show us!
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by *Michael.*:
<strong>Is the back right tyre off of the ground?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yes sir. I also got a quick video clip where the guy passes me and drifts a corner super smooth... with an FWD car</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well show us!
04-10-2003, 05:05 PM
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Drifting
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Awww.. I'd need to get a computer that has a FireWire port or something first, the clip is still on a DV cassette <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
04-10-2003, 05:40 PM
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im humbled by stock hondas and mazdas every time i call paragon for a part!
i was also humbled in the driveway by a fwd oldsmanbile every time it snowed this winter!
i was also humbled in the driveway by a fwd oldsmanbile every time it snowed this winter!
04-11-2003, 01:00 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by *Michael.*:
<strong>Is the back right tyre off of the ground?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yup. Lots of FFs have a solid rear axle. The good hondas (Integras and RSXs) don't, but most do.
You get to see a lot of that at autoX. VWs, Sentras, Civics, Saturns, any FF GM car, they all get up on three wheels on a tight corner.
I personally have nothing against honda owners. I have an Acura RSX Type-S sitting next to my 951. But I will say that many of the honda tuner crowd have some seriously ricey mods (like those bookshelf rear spoilers, and the 18+ inch rims with stock brakes).
And some of those integras can get some serious performance.
<strong>Is the back right tyre off of the ground?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yup. Lots of FFs have a solid rear axle. The good hondas (Integras and RSXs) don't, but most do.
You get to see a lot of that at autoX. VWs, Sentras, Civics, Saturns, any FF GM car, they all get up on three wheels on a tight corner.
I personally have nothing against honda owners. I have an Acura RSX Type-S sitting next to my 951. But I will say that many of the honda tuner crowd have some seriously ricey mods (like those bookshelf rear spoilers, and the 18+ inch rims with stock brakes).
And some of those integras can get some serious performance.
04-11-2003, 01:11 AM
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I used to own a 1986 Ford Escort 1.6 Rs Turbo and it was FWD but it used to seriously outrun my friends 944 Turbo but then again I drove stupid when I was young.Now I have a 944 I love getting the rear end out (of the car that is) but I still want a Turbo under the hood.Sorry for the ignorance but I take it the 951s are turboed.
04-11-2003, 01:24 AM
#15
Race Director
I think I'm somewhat qualified to comment. I race a Sentra SE-R in SCCA ITS (same as the 944 that I happen to be building). I've owned FWD cars for 20 years exclusively until a few weeks ago when I bought a 2000 BMW 328i.
They are different to drive. I'm just starting to explore the capabilities of the Bimmer a bit because it's very different to drive. Part of that is the weight, but part of that is RWD vs FWD. The basics are the same, but the specific techniques to be quick are different.
Think about this.... With RWD, once you are understeering on corner entry, you're dead meat. You *have* to really slow down to get traction back on the front tires. With FWD, because the tires are also driving the car, unless you have total loss of traction, you can use this to pull you through the corner. Sometimes you have to just not worry about understeer vs oversteer as well. The rear wheels are just along for the ride.
But to get to your actual question (in a way), FWD can be very fast indeed. The Sentra SE-R is every bit the measure of a 944 where performance is concerned, as hard as that may be for some to believe. Good FWD platforms are out there and they tend to be easier to drive as well and some can be driven embarrassingly quickly. The SE-R folks regularly embarrass P-cars and other very fine cars at DEs, and it's not just extremely talented drivers either. They are an easy car to drive very fast.
I'm neither trying to diss the 944 nor promote the SE-R. I'm just trying to give you an unbiased opinion based upon direct observation and experience.
Oh, and why am I building a 944 when I have plenty of experience with the SE-R? Well despite the fact I honestly believe the SE-R has more potential in ITS, I very much wanted a RWD race car. Why? Dunno. Just did. But, if I found an SE-R for as good a deal as the 944 was, I'd be building a SE-R instead. I'm very happy with the 944 so far and have made some new friends from this forum/mailing list.
They are different to drive. I'm just starting to explore the capabilities of the Bimmer a bit because it's very different to drive. Part of that is the weight, but part of that is RWD vs FWD. The basics are the same, but the specific techniques to be quick are different.
Think about this.... With RWD, once you are understeering on corner entry, you're dead meat. You *have* to really slow down to get traction back on the front tires. With FWD, because the tires are also driving the car, unless you have total loss of traction, you can use this to pull you through the corner. Sometimes you have to just not worry about understeer vs oversteer as well. The rear wheels are just along for the ride.
But to get to your actual question (in a way), FWD can be very fast indeed. The Sentra SE-R is every bit the measure of a 944 where performance is concerned, as hard as that may be for some to believe. Good FWD platforms are out there and they tend to be easier to drive as well and some can be driven embarrassingly quickly. The SE-R folks regularly embarrass P-cars and other very fine cars at DEs, and it's not just extremely talented drivers either. They are an easy car to drive very fast.
I'm neither trying to diss the 944 nor promote the SE-R. I'm just trying to give you an unbiased opinion based upon direct observation and experience.
Oh, and why am I building a 944 when I have plenty of experience with the SE-R? Well despite the fact I honestly believe the SE-R has more potential in ITS, I very much wanted a RWD race car. Why? Dunno. Just did. But, if I found an SE-R for as good a deal as the 944 was, I'd be building a SE-R instead. I'm very happy with the 944 so far and have made some new friends from this forum/mailing list.