Danno

You can get HAL shocks here:



HAL Shocks

7986 SW Jack James Dr.

Stuart FL 34997

888-235-7469

561-221-0164

Fax: 561-221-0561



Also numerous other retailers as well.

Manning

But if I use the HAL shocks they might keep telling me that they are afraid they cannot do that and keep calling me Dave and stuff.

I am pretty sure they sell the HAL shocks at Summit as well. I really don't know anything about them. With that in mind I think I would pick the cheaper single adjustable Koni over the 13 click HAL unknown entity. Also, I know I mentioned that we would need to know eye-to-eye and such, but wouldn't we need to consider initial valving for specific cars as well? Maybe Larry or someone at TrueChoice can answer that for us.

Regarding the clamp-on coilover conversion, (even though I brought it up) I am leary and would suspect things to happen like what Thaddeus experienced.

Larry, does the clamp on spring kit sound like something worth your while to do or does it just sound sketchy and susceptible to failure?

RPG951S

Tom>>I'd be surprised if these were only $189 each. The cheapest gas units are around $500 each and the gas units with separate bump/rebound adjusters are close to $700 each.

I was pretty shocked myself... but here's the email from Karl @ Racer's Edge:

...
This price is for just the coil over ready shock with all seats. These are for all 944/Turbo applications. Springs would be extra (63.50 each). These shocks have a hard rubber end and are suitable for coil over helper applications. If it was a rear coil over only(no torsion bars), then the price would be $240 each as you would need spherical bearings on the shock ends to deal with the loads. A lower mounting adapter would also be needed for the bearings at $150 for the pair.

Thanks for your interest.

Karl
Racer's Edge
865-675-8285
----- Original Message -----
From: Raagi Pandya
To: info@racersedge-inc.com
Sent: Thursday, January 24, 2002 11:22 AM
Subject: Rear Coil-overs


Hi,

I noticed in your advertisement in (PCA)Parorama magazine, you list rear-coil overs starting at $189...

What coil-overs are you refering to? Is this a rear strut+ mounts + spring?
Is this for the 944/Turbo/TurboS application?

...

So... there it is. Although, looking at this again, he doesn't SAY it's a LEDA shock, so it's entirely possible it's something else... hmmmm...

Tom>>The spherical bearings aren't as bad as you think. It's more of a road noise problem than harshness problem, and only on certain types of lousy concrete.

I guess I'm just spoiled. I LOVE the way my turboS soaks ups bad bumps and rough patches, and remains pretty darn quiet. It's a pretty good comprimise, the stock suspension is...

Tom>>Wouldn't you have to spec this when you order them because the lower bolt adapter is made for 1/2" spherical bearings and the stock Porsche lower bolt is larger... unless you just use an adapter sleeve, which is a real possibility since that's what's required for the top mount on a spherical joint shock.

Not sure... Karl seems to indiciate that if your
using the rubber ended shocks, not 'removing' your rear tbars, this shock doen't need the adapter... but that doesn't sound entirely correct....?

Tom>>In any event, don't expect to just slap these on and go. In order for any rear coilover shock/spring combination to work correctly in conjuction with torsion bars, you need to put some preload into the coil so it doesn't unload completely during heavy braking. You might be able to do this with the eccentric adjuster... but I wouldn't bet on being able to get enough preload.

Not sure here... but with the variable ride height adjustment of the coilover and the eccentric bolt, I'd assume it would be pretty easy. Drop the rear as far as possible with the bolt, and use the spring adjuster to 'bring it back up'. Just a guess.. may be totally off basis...

Anyways... possibilities...

Manning

Wow, that is pretty nifty-snifty.

I was of the impression that the Racers Edge adapter was needed to help space out the shock so that the springs would clear the car body as well to compensate for a spherical bearing lower end on the shock. I guess if you have a big rubber bushed end like on a stock shock it is already spaced out enough.

You say you didn't gather whether these where Ledas or not though huh?

Skip

Someone asked me to join in, but I'm not sure what the question is? If looking for coil-over helper or solitary setups, then there are many choices. Let cost, quality, and intended use guide your decision.

A couple *opinions* I'll add: I can't see that the clamp-on coil-over kit would be a very good choice. It seems a bit risky to rely on the clamping force of a split collar over a smooth painted surface... also, as stated earlier, it could crush the casing. You can't weld either as that would cause harm to the shock internals. IMHO, some JC Whitney parts are best left to JC Whitney cars (speaking of the clamp-ons still)

Adding coil-overs to the rear of the car *is* a big deal, and shouldn't be regarded as a simple bolt-on. As Tom eluded to, there's much to be considered and accomplished when making the swap to a coil-over (in helper or solitary format). Basically, the car was_not designed to use them, so modifications are necessary... with some brands less than others though. Also, unless working on the premise that the 968 M030 car used the 25.5mm bars with helper springs and basically the same front springs, you really need to consider the front of the vehicle as well. The front actually being *more* important than the rear (you're open to argue this, just an opinion). For instance: if adding the Koni 3012 coil-over rears to a 944, then you would match the fronts to either the customized 8742-1007S (dbl-adj, height-adj, race valving) or a custom valved Koni/Other of your choice. The same would apply to any mismatch of aftermarket and standard shocks/struts.

Finally, and I know this because my checkbook tells me so, prepping and primping cars outside of the norm is an expensive hobby with varying degrees of reward. From the faint smile of a freshly waxed hood, to the all-out giddyness of XXpsi of boost. There's certainly better financial investments to make throughout life, but none better for your soul.

Skip (amatuer philosopher, professional slacker)

Tom Pultz

[quote]Originally posted by RPG951S:
Not sure here... but with the variable ride height adjustment of the coilover and the eccentric bolt, I'd assume it would be pretty easy. Drop the rear as far as possible with the bolt, and use the spring adjuster to 'bring it back up'. Just a guess.. may be totally off basis...<hr></blockquote>You might get away with this if you run the cheaper Leda oil shocks. But as I found out with my Koni 3012s, any high pressure gas shock will raise your ride height considerably (mine went up an inch) without any coils installed. I had the torsion bars re-indexed and they needed to come down to about 10 degrees so I could put about 1" of preload into the coils. They work great this way.

I was leery of running ONLY coilover shocks without torsion bars to support part of the load and secure the spring plate. The setup works great for a combination street/sometime DE car. For a dedicted track car a full coilover would be better, and much easier to make adjustments to.

The factory 968 M030 setup works very well at reasonable cost, but it also jacks the rear end up in cars not designed for it. It's also not adjustable, so the Leda setup sounds very good at reasonable cost. Racer's Edge is great to work with too... if only it didn't take months to get anything from Leda... I'd probably be driving on Leda units now.

Manning

First let me say i am not trying to be argumentative.

Skip, I am glad you chimed in.

As I mentioned in my comment about the HAL shocks, there is a lot more to consider than eye-to-eye at full drop and full compression and stroke length, there is also initial valving to think about. I keep bringing up TrueChoice, not to belittle Paragon as I really have had great experiences dealing with Jason, but because they are a fully certified Koni service center on top of the fact that they sell everything in the Koni catalog. So, that said, they should be able to build a set of Koni rears, whether the 3012 or 30 SP8 series, with valving based on your needs/usage. That said, so should whomever Jason sources his shocks from. And if Jason or some other retailer did this I am sure it would be cheaper than if Joe Average did it on a one off basis.

Now, more to the point.

Supposed Joe 944 owner wants to stiffen up the rear of his car, bearing in mind that he/she must keep front and rear balance. I personally think it sucks to have to pull t-bars and index new ones to do this, so why not sling on a set of coilovers with appropriate helper spring. Yeah obviously it isn't as simple as that but you get my point. And yeah I realize you may wind up having to reindex the bars anyway, but once done you should be able to diddle with helper spring rates somewhat more easily, right?

Now, maybe Joe 944 doesn't want to/can't shell out $1300.00 for the 3012 series and maybe doesn't really need double adjustable. Why not pop for a set of coilovers based on the 30 SP8, which would come in well under a grand.

And further, based on your comment that the 3012 coilover package should be matched to to either the customized 8742-1007S (dbl-adj, height-adj, race valving) or a custom valved Koni/Other of your choice, this isn't readily apparent to Joe Customer when they look at the rear kit on the web site. Know I know if you try to order a set of the rears someone will probably call to make sure you know what the F you are ordering, but perhaps a note should be added to make it more clear so someone like Craig doesn't try to order a set for his casual drives back and forth from the Krispy Kreme or the Kung Fu palace. (Wow, I could leave out the punctuations and called myself James Joyce). I think the way it stands right now someone might be inclined to think they can just pop for the front GC coilover convertion Paragon sells and a set of Koni sports (Yellows) front inserts and they are good to go if they pop on a set of 3012s in the rear.

And one more little comment. No offence to Tim or JG, but I think Grassroots Motorsports did a crap job in their series about the 944, and really didn't go into enough detail about the complexities of setting up a 924/944 series car with a full coilover suspension. And they really only made a half-hearted effort in setting up their project cars suspension to boot. This definitely did not give Joe 944 a good idea of what it takes to properly set up one of these cars in my opinion.

Skip

[quote]Originally posted by Manning:
<strong>First let me say i am not trying to be argumentative.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I would never assume this of you

[quote]<strong> [referring to Truchoice] ...they should be able to build a set of Koni rears, whether the 3012 or 30 SP8 series, with valving based on your needs/usage. That said, so should whomever Jason sources his shocks from. And if Jason or some other retailer did this I am sure it would be cheaper than if Joe Average did it on a one off basis.</strong><hr></blockquote>

They can and do, as does Paragon. The 3012, and more recently the 28-series racing dampers are some examples of this relationship. The 28-series test and development platform was Jason's 89 951. Paragon deals directly with Koni-na, even for rebuilds/revalves. While we do not offer the rebuild service in-house, we can act as the middleman for folks not wanting to deal directly with Koni-na.

[quote]<strong>And yeah I realize you may wind up having to reindex the bars anyway, but once done you should be able to diddle with helper spring rates somewhat more easily, right?</strong><hr></blockquote>

right

[quote]<strong>Why not pop for a set of coilovers based on the 30 SP8, which would come in well under a grand.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Possibly, but remember that part of the price of such packages includes the springs and any adaptor hardware needed. As stated before, the jump to a rear coil-over is a fairly significant one, so the desire for the customer to have the higher quality 3012 with its additional adjustment capability and valving range (500-2000) is one that fits well with the desired use. Certainly, if the 30 SP8 were significantly less expensive, it could represent a "tuner" rather than "competition" application. We're certainly going to look into this now, thanks for the suggestion.

[quote]<strong>And further, based on your comment that the 3012 coilover package should be matched to to either the customized 8742-1007S (dbl-adj, height-adj, race valving) or a custom valved Koni/Other of your choice, this isn't readily apparent to Joe... I think the way it stands right now someone might be inclined to think they can just pop for the front GC coilover convertion Paragon sells and a set of Koni sports (Yellows) front inserts and they are good to go if they pop on a set of 3012s in the rear.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Absolutely agree. This is the primary reason the Tech-Session site exists... to offer sound advice both to choose the right components and to complete the task of installing them. Bear with us while we add content, but soon you will indeed see that all questions are answered with the "click" of a button (literally). That said, books can and have been written on every topic of automotive technology and race setup... so much so that it would be impossible to offer comprehensive insight into every equation. The Porsche cars have been modified in nearly the same fashion for many years, so there's much history to put down on paper (virtually maybe) that can aid in understanding and decision-making. For now, we certainly welcome phone calls and private correspondence to hammer out the gory details.

Sincerely, thanks for your comments!

*Rothmans*

Well said Skip, and Mean Mike! <img src="graemlins/oops.gif" border="0" alt="[oops]" />
After researching suspensions, I think there is a lot of misinformation out there.
You CAN race on old technology and WIN. For instance the lap record holder in H class at Mosport is a Rothmans car that has the stock factory 1986 sport suspension. Go figure, I am sure a lot of cars have fancy schmancy big buck suspension parts to go fast, and can't win a race.
Certainly suspension and tire technology has come a long way. Unfortunately, I can't afford the most up to date racing Koni's, Leda's, or Bilstein units.
What I did do was start literally at the foundation of the suspension, the mounting points. My car IS street legal and will be raced.
I chose Racers Edge components to hard mount the rear suspension and added delrin bushings and spherical bushings. I have OLD TECH M030 helper springs freshly rebuilt by Truechoice. My front Bilstein struts will be revalved to match my spring choice. (There you go, Koni and Bilstein on the same car, with the adjustments to be made exclusively in the rear)
I figure that if the suspension is going to work, it had better be able to move, and deliver seat of the pants feedback to my clenched buttocks.
I love these suspension debates, because you can go bankrupt buying state of the art.
I guess my point is I am budgeting for the "big picture" for my suspension, although I wish I could go nuts for the latest and the greatest units the PCA rules will allow.
Ultimately, the handling of the car depends on the set up and driver skill.
Looking ahead means my torsion bars will come out once, be indexed, and everything goes back together as a brand new, albeit low budget / tech set up. I will save tons on labour because I can do some of it myself (THANKS PARAGON TECH SESSION)
and my mechanic only has to do the rest once.
So I guess my point is that I wanted to share a little about myself and my car, and to tell the guys out there not to get too hung up on the race-worthy stuff.
I think the suggestion of the lower end Koni being made into an affordable package is a great idea. It's probably better than what I will be racing on!
FWIW, this is a great thread!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

DanD

But Dave... I'm afraid you can do that... (in a soft monotone voice)
Long post - just warning you...

I just finished putting on the HAL shocks. Now known as QA1. They are single adjusting **** that adjusts both rebound and compression. I put them in the middle, since I didn't have a clue where to start. On the website they talk about drag shocks. I talked to the tech support and he assured me that they were not valved strictly for drag racing. They run 169.99 each from QA1 1-800-721-7761 or

<a href="http://www.halshocks.com/shocks/promastar_al.html" target="_blank">QA1 Hal Coil overs</a>



Here's the good news. They work. They look great. High quality. My total investment is now just over $500 for the pair. Because I'm a cheepscape I made most of my mounts.

Here's the bad news. As mentioned before, they do not just 'drop in'. For a price, you can just bolt them on, but it would be somewhere about $250 more. I can see why Huntley charges so much for them. They probably redesign the mounts. The eye bolts for the two ends are 1/2". Which doesn't work too well with the top bolt being 12mm and the bottom bolt at 14mm. Also, they are too short. The length is 14" instead of almost 16" for the stock shocks. Here is how I did it and how it should be done if you were to do it right.

-First shock length-
Carrera makes a shock extension PN 1949B that is 1 3/8" long. (closer to 1 5/8") $8 each. 9/16 dia with 18 threads per inch. You remove the top eyebolt and put the extension on, then put the eye bolt back on. (this actually ends up on the bottom, since the shock is mounted upside down. Won't fit otherwise and saves unspung weight)

-Coil Springs-
2 1/2" id by 8" length.
A note about coil spring lengths. I was told to go with 9" length. This is about right, but the Hypercoil springs that Jason sells only come in 8 or 10". So here's what I did about that. Since I was converting my front springs to 2 1/2" at the same time, and Jason recommended 8" on the front, I decided to go with 8" on the back and use a 1" spacer (again a Carrera product). This also gives me the option of removing my torsion bars and swapping the springs front to rear.

-Top mount-
12 mm bolt leaves too much slack in the 1/2" opening. The shock rattles around, plus the width is only about 1 inch instead of the almost 2 inches from the stock shock uses.
The right way.
Purchase 2 adapter sleeves (per side, total 4) from Carrera at $20 each. Nice and tight, requires slight trimming to fit.
Dans' solution.
Use the factory 12mm bolt. Purchase some aluminum tape used to seal air conditioning ductwork. Put 3 layers on the inside of the top eyebolt. Takes some work to make it fit. Effectively takes up the 1mm slack difference between 12mm and 13mm (1/2"). Then painstakingly insert the shock bolt with washers to place the top bolt in a position where it won't rub the top mount or surrounding hardware. I think it was 3 on the outside and 4 or 5 on the inside. Quite the patience tester but saves $80.

-Next the bottom mount-
The right way. But the Racers edge mounts for $150 pr. Tough and known to work.
another right way. Buy from Carrera poly shock mounts for the bottom. Or buy one shock with poly mounts and one with bearing mounts. Use the bearing mounts on the top and the poly mounts on the bottom. Then buy Carrera 14mm (or 9/16) sleeve kits to go into these. They run $13ea.
When the 9/16" sleeve kit turned out to be 5/8" I did the following...
Dan's way. Go to the hardware store (several in fact) and buy a M14 by 100mm hardened bolt.
Since I'm an old mechanic and I never throw anything away. I had some new rubber shock bushings. I cut them to fit in the bottom shock eyebolt and massaged them so that the 14mm bolt would go through. Use a 1" spacer to move the coils away from the bottom control arm.

I'll probably call Carrera and get the proper sleeve and go that way for the bottom mount.

-Fronts-
I had existing Koni yellow M030 adjustable front suspension. I purchased 2.5" springs and top and bottom mounts from Jason @ Paragon to convert it to 'coil-over' so I could use a variety of spring rates. This ran about $250 including springs. Those without M030 can do basically the same thing. Talk to Jason.


As you can see, it's a lot of work to save some money. My total front and rear was about $750 plus incidentals. The Leda shocks might be a better choice length wise, but it sounds like the mounts would still be a problem.

-Results - (please no lectures about building the car before the driver, I'm working on it..)
I had my first time trial this last weekend. Along with a DE on Friday. The car performed fantastic. My overall setup is as follows. Front Koni yellows with 2 1/2" coil-over kit from Paragon, (converting my existing M030 setup to 2.5). 400# springs on the front. 300# springs on the back with 25.5mm torsion bars. (racer 22 setup) See my spreadsheet. Shocks adjusted right in the middle on both front and rear. I felt very confident with the setup, however, I probably wouldn't know the difference between a good setup and a great setup if it bit me. The ride to and from the track was very smooth. stiff but not bone jaring. On the track it was very balanced and I could generally stay with most cars in my group as long as my nerve would hold out. My first ever official timed runs greatly exceeded my expectations.

Special thanks to Jason @ Paragon, Steve Ellis @ Carrera and the Guys @ QA1 for getting me the stuff I needed just in time for my most excellent track weekend. And to Jason, Chris White and John Anderson for the suspension tips.

Manning

Hey DanD, great to see that the QA1s are working out for you.

Skip, thanks for all of you comments

[quote] if the 30 SP8 were significantly less expensive, it could represent a "tuner" rather than "competition" application. <hr></blockquote>

Yeah, I was kind of concerned about that too. The details I have on the 30 SP8 are that they are a lower cost per shock ($250.00 versus $500.00) Aluminum threaded bodied single adjustable high pressure gas shock designed for road racing applications. If I recall from my Koni dealer manual they are available in fewer lengths and fewer stock valving choices, though the valving can be customized. They also only offer 4 clicks of adjustment to rebound damping (representing a 100% change in damping) versus compression and rebound on the 3012. And they come with steel spring seats. Oh and they are totally rebuildable. So I am keeping my fingers crossed that they aren't just some tuner shyte that will give you the "look".

Now don't get me wrong, I am not totally sold on the 30 SP8, I am simply using them as an example of viable lower cost alternatives to 3012s so many offer. The average daily driver/weekend racer probably really doesn't need coilovers and the really really most likely will not benefit from double adjustable shocks. But if they want a lower buck coilover package for a little more competetive edge, well here you go!

[quote] Absolutely agree. This is the primary reason the Tech-Session site exists... to offer sound advice both to choose the right components and to complete the task of installing them. <hr></blockquote>

Oh, I am totally with you on that. And like I said in another post, if Jason or someone thinks you may not know what you are ordering, they call and make sure. Those guys kick *** that way. But, some young buck (hence the Craig comment) might think hey, those are fly, and order without really looking into what they are doing or need to do to balance the setup. Just a simple line in the product description stating please call before ordering or please check the tech session regarding appropriate application of these shocks or something along those lines would help folk like that.

And regarding dollars for the two options I have offered, we know the 3012s can be had for $500.00 each, roughly. And we know Paragon sells the kits, including all hardware and springs for $1300.00 or there about. So, since the 30 SP8s are about half as much as the 3012s we should be able to, roughly, lop off $500.00 from the price of a kit using them. So maybe the kit is $800.00. Doesn't that sound nice for the weekend AutoXer? And they can stay within SCCA rules, wahoo!!!

Thanks for the feedback Skip, I hope I didn't come off as a big jerk.

Skip

[quote]Originally posted by Manning:
<strong>And they can stay within SCCA rules, wahoo!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>

What class(es) are you referring to?

Skip

Manning

Merely a reference to the fact that in some classes you have to keep your t-bars if you add coilovers or you bump up a class. I have to look at the book as I don't really keep up on the rules for AutoX classes. I am thinking SS versus SP but I could be off a class.

Skip

Modified (SCCA Solo2, Street Modified) is the classing that allows the addition of coil-overs where none existed originally. ITS (SCCA Club Race, Improved Touring) does not allow them either. PCA Club Race does allow them, just not in stock. PCA PCR for autoX (national level, parade) awards points for them, so you may jump a class or three Normally aspirated 944's really get boned in the rear when it comes to spring types.

For street cars, time trials, and DE... you can do anything your SO lets you

Skip

Huntley Racing

We do in fact have QA1 build shocks for us labled under the Huntley Racing name. They are NOT valved the same as the regular QA1 shocks and are modified with true 12mm upper bearing mounts and 14mm lower mounts. We extend the rod 1" and run a modified spring perch arraingment. We provide a new lower mounting point with machined spacer and bearing supports. The complete set-up is $520.