M758

Ahh,
I did a race / street car DE event this weekend. Heck it got so hot by the end of the day Sunday (105F) that After the race the street car groups has 1 car on the track for 30-40 mintues. Track was open and time was avalible, but nobody wanted to run They went home early. I gotta think that guy had blast..... A full track all to yourself!

Z-man

[quote]Originally posted by AutoXdriver:
<strong>

6 cars??? Man you are so lucky. The autocrosses I go to usually have 100-120 cars and you hand there from 8am to 4-5pm in the hot sun and get 3-4 60 sec. runs. Sure its still worth it but 6 cars? Can I come? ;-)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Dude: your organizers need to take a trip up to NJ and see how NNJR does autox: 100-120 cars, 8:00am start, 3:00pm finish: 7-8 RUNS!

Oh, yeah, I autocross my 944S2. So does Dave, Al P, and and a few other NNJR members who frequent Rennlist.

[soapbox mode on] For all you people just starting to autocross, or are thinking about it: worry not about the modifications: RUN YOUR CAR STOCK! You'll have plenty of fun, and you'll learn more with a stock setup! Modifications, especially sticky tires will give you quicker times, but you'll also pick up bad habits fast!
[soapbox mode off]

Is the 944 competitive? YES! Believe it or not, our 10-15 year old cars regularly can spank other, newer models! The 50-50 balance is key, as well as that German engineering!

Try it, you'll LOVE it!
-Z.

Andre

[quote]Originally posted by Elvis3327:
<strong>Also, my car did not come with a rear sway bar. Can I retrofit one to my car and still be "stock?"
Thanks!</strong><hr></blockquote>

i would assume so. someone can run the same year car with a sway bar and still be considered stock so how would they even KNOW that YOU put that sway bar on and not the factory?

if you decide to put one on, let me know...i jsut put on a 968 M030 19mm one on my 86 944 so i have the stock 14 lieing around. I'll sell it to ya if you want, it'll come with the bushings but you'll still need the clips and stuff but i'm sure you can get those off ebay or something. let me know: dre968@hotmail.com

Dave

Do it, it's addictive!
So is DE, but you can't beat AX in bang for the buck, just get out there and try it.

[quote] Autox really doesn't seem top be its natural habitat. Our cars were built for raw speed as much as handling and the very nature of autox is to regulate speed, so the Jap cars seem to be better suited to it,,, <hr></blockquote>
[Rant}
The above is BS, size and weight are why many Asian cars (and VWs) seem better suited to AX. That and the FWD learning curve is alot shorter, FWD is much more forgiving for a beginner. A 944 or any other Porsche can regulate power just as well as any other car out there, the only thing that can change that is a throttle cam, they do kill of some sensitivity at low end in return for the shorter travel.
[/Rant]

Skip

[quote]Originally posted by Mark Parker:
<strong>... has preached at me for the last three events to break down and get a set of Hoosiers. He tells me that he too was reluctant to spend that kind of money, but after he did, he wondered why he resisted.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I couldn't agree more! 225/45-15 Hoosier on 15x7 Fuchs - the 944na secret weapon... SHHHH!

Although, I run 225/245-16 Kumho's on the big circuit (airfield) because the speeds sometimes reach 80 or so - need all the 2nd gear I can get. Smaller diameter Hoosiers work better on the tighter courses.

S

M758

[quote]Originally posted by Z-man:
<strong>


[soapbox mode on] For all you people just starting to autocross, or are thinking about it: worry not about the modifications: RUN YOUR CAR STOCK! You'll have plenty of fun, and you'll learn more with a stock setup! Modifications, especially sticky tires will give you quicker times, but you'll also pick up bad habits fast!
[soapbox mode off]

Is the 944 competitive? YES! Believe it or not, our 10-15 year old cars regularly can spank other, newer models! The 50-50 balance is key, as well as that German engineering!
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Zman..... Good Call <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

What is the best modification you can do to a 944 to make it faster for Autocross or Track.... Simple LEARN TO DRIVE IT!

Mr_Underhill

Keeping in mind im a total newbie to all of this, what does DE stand for?

Dales944

Mr_Underhill, DE stands for a Driver's Education event. Most often a full track event, but can apply to Auto-X as well.

DB944T

I became an autox addict this year,too. I followed advice and have kept my 951 totally stock, on old, all-season tires. I went from being horribly slow to just slow. (7 secs/min behind the best, well set up S2's)

The question I am trying to figure out is, how much is now the car, and how much is me. that way I can know when it is worth upgrading, especially the tires. Any rules of thumb/experience in how many seconds/minute for upgrades.

Looking at this months grass roots motorsports tire test, performance tires to R compound tires is 2 secs/40 or 3 secs/minute. Any estimates for all season, 300 tread wear to R tires?

Any estimatesexperience on M030 bars? other stock upgrades?

Thanks
Dave

Z-man

[quote]Originally posted by DB944T:
<strong>I became an autox addict this year,too. I followed advice and have kept my 951 totally stock, on old, all-season tires. I went from being horribly slow to just slow. (7 secs/min behind the best, well set up S2's)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't worry about how your rate directly with others in your run group: a better indication of your ability is how you are improving your own times. How many seconds are you improving from first run to last? How comfortable do you feel on the track? Are you learning where and when to brake and get on throttle? Where do you fall in regards to all the cars running? (Have you moved up in percentile yet?) The old, all season tires probably slow you down a little, but you'd be surpised how much more potential your car has. If your autox event allows for 'fun runs,' maybe you could get the S2 driver to take your car out for a lap.
<strong> [quote]
The question I am trying to figure out is, how much is now the car, and how much is me. that way I can know when it is worth upgrading, especially the tires. Any rules of thumb/experience in how many seconds/minute for upgrades.</strong><hr></blockquote>
My rule of thumb for upgrading to sticky tires is this: When I can consistently BEAT cars with R-compound tires with my car wearing street tires, then it's time to upgrade to the stickies! I'm within 2-3 seconds of a 944 Turbo in my run group who runs with stickies, so I'm getting there...
IMHO: too many people upgrade too quickly, and too many components at the same time. By doing this they: a. cannnot take full advantage of the upgrades, and b. don't know what (if any) of the upgrades really made a difference.
As a reference point: I'm running basically bone stock (except for rear sway bar), and I'm consistently placing in the top three in my run group. (944S, S2, Turbo, TurboS, and 968)
My opinions on other upgrades:
M030 sway bar: Upgrade the rear only, after a season or two of autox. (See note below)
Front strut tower brace: Don't bother. It just gets in the way, and doesn't really help much.
Suspension: Unless you want to compete in Improved or Modified classes, I'd keep your suspension stock. There's always someone in improved or modified classes that have more $$ and goodies on their cars.
Engine/intake/exhaust: Again, keep it stock. Stock classes are the purest form of autox. Stay and play there! You may not get any TTOD, but you'll be in a more evenly matched class.
<strong> [quote]
Looking at this months grass roots motorsports tire test, performance tires to R compound tires is 2 secs/40 or 3 secs/minute. Any estimates for all season, 300 tread wear to R tires?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Probably another 2-3 seconds behind performance street tires would be my guess.
<strong> [quote]
Any estimates experience on M030 bars? other stock upgrades? </strong><hr></blockquote>
This year I upgraded my rear swaybar to the 968 19mm M030 bar. Started on the medium setting, but have gone to full firm. Depending on the autox surface, this has helped and hurt me. (Oversteer is larger and harder to control on a slippery surface). It does tame the understeer my car exhibits on the track during DE's.
If you have the upgrade bug hit you, I STRONGLY suggest to start with the rear sway bar, and LEAVE the front alone! Firming up the front (with a thicker sway bar) will only increase your car's tendency to understeer, which will not help improve your autox times. In order for a thicker front sway bar to be effective, you will have to firm up the whole suspension (springs, coil-overs, ...etc) which you are not ready for yet.

Hope this helps,
-Zoltan.
Disclaimer: What I've stated here is from my experience and from talking with the 'autox experts'. This is a very subjective field, and these are my suggestions.

M758

My experience confirms much of what Z-man said. Except for one thing. Street tires vs R-compound tires. I have seen only very inexperineced Ax drivers (typically spouses of experienced drivers borrowing the car) beaten by experienced drivers on high performance street tires. Not going to say that it can never happen, but grip is so important that for 90% of our PCA autocross are All "R" tires followed by all street tires when sorted by top times...

Maybe all the really skilled guys are running "R" tires anyway, but that is what I have scene.

Skip

I'll disagree a little bit with this subject of leaving things stock. Our models were designed from the box to be mid-level sports cars - not to *compete* in autocross, or track events. With that in mind, a copy of the rules in hand, and a good understanding of chassis dynamics, you can upgrade the car to a level in which it is comfotable to drive under the conditions you intend. Taking a stock car with all-season tires to an autocross or DE more than the once might prove to be a real inhibitor to your fun meter. By this, I am speaking of dampers, stabilizers, bushings, tires, and brakes... not to be misinterpreted to mean 400# springs, 30mm T-bars, camber plates, strut brace, R-comp tires, etc. Primary thing to stay away from is moving out of stock classes before you are doing well there... the cars and drivers usually get better relative to the classing... part of the addiction circle

Hi, I am Skip. I am addicted to racing.

S

M758

Skip, I think the point here is this. These cars a really good stock. There is far more potential in the cars in stock form than the average Ax novice can use. Therefore it makes no sense to spend money on it. Better to improve the driver and then improve the car. Too many people often see the fast guys running all the cool mods (Skip you are one of these cool fast guys) and they think that all they need to do is modifiy the car and they will be that fast.

Fact is that you just like most fast guys started in stock cars and worked on their skills first and then later worked on the car.

Improve the Driver First and Car second!

Dave

When you've done enough AX in stock trim, you won't have to ask what mods to try. You will have a good idea of what will work for you. Sooner or later you will realize that "part X" is holding you back, that's when you upgrade it.

Gerald Allgire

I'm planning to auto-x my 84 944 next year. It is ready for some new struts & shocks. What do you auto-xers recommend? It will be run as stock with 7x15 & 8 1/2x15 Fuchs and street tires.