My 968 Turbo is finished, pics and details!
09-05-2002, 10:43 PM
#46
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Looks good. My first question may seem rude, but please don't take it that way - Trevor, HOW(??) did you afford this and your other 944 as well??? If I remember correctly aren't your 17? Just wondering.
Second, maybe John Anderson can list the benefits of going with this kit over the SFR SC kit? I'm not in the market for either, but some day may be and I'd be curious to know. Immediate boost with an intercooler vs. slight turbo lag with no intercooler? Maybe you can help me out. Thanks!
-Matt
Second, maybe John Anderson can list the benefits of going with this kit over the SFR SC kit? I'm not in the market for either, but some day may be and I'd be curious to know. Immediate boost with an intercooler vs. slight turbo lag with no intercooler? Maybe you can help me out. Thanks!
-Matt
09-05-2002, 11:01 PM
#47
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You're close Matt, I'm 19. My dad gave me the 944 before he left [haven't seen him forever, don't hear from him either] and I bought the 968 after saving and looking for about 15 months. Obviously I work a lot. I was pulling 40 hours/week senior year in high school and still came home to get my school **** done, now I'm working about 70 hrs/week but John and Tim both gave me unbelievable deals on the work!
Why turbo instead of supercharge? With a centrifugal supercharger the AC needs to be removed because the actual compressor takes the alternator's mounting point and the alternator is moved down to where the AC compressor was. With this turbo application full boost hits at 2500 RPM, a supercharger doesn't make full boost until redline...so you're getting little added bits of boost all through the range with a supercharger instead of having all at once, EARLIER with the turbo.
The turbo is proven. How many 200k+ mile 951's are out on the road? We used the exact same parts, the supercharger is not yet proven. Touring cars and full-blown track cars use turbos because they're durable and they multiply torque like crazy. The turbo requires no seperate maintenance, you change the engine oil and that's it. A supercharger has to be serviced [or at least the ones offered for 944 conversions do] because they're self contained. Basically, turbos are a proven method of increasing power used by Porsche and we think turbocharging is the best avenue for these cars if you want power!
Why turbo instead of supercharge? With a centrifugal supercharger the AC needs to be removed because the actual compressor takes the alternator's mounting point and the alternator is moved down to where the AC compressor was. With this turbo application full boost hits at 2500 RPM, a supercharger doesn't make full boost until redline...so you're getting little added bits of boost all through the range with a supercharger instead of having all at once, EARLIER with the turbo.
The turbo is proven. How many 200k+ mile 951's are out on the road? We used the exact same parts, the supercharger is not yet proven. Touring cars and full-blown track cars use turbos because they're durable and they multiply torque like crazy. The turbo requires no seperate maintenance, you change the engine oil and that's it. A supercharger has to be serviced [or at least the ones offered for 944 conversions do] because they're self contained. Basically, turbos are a proven method of increasing power used by Porsche and we think turbocharging is the best avenue for these cars if you want power!
09-05-2002, 11:02 PM
#48
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I have something to learn about life?
You just sound so negative. Rather than a CONGRATULATIONS on this project, you have been skeptical and harsh sounding about it. Be happy for a potential advancement in the Porsche performance tuning world.
SHAUN
You just sound so negative. Rather than a CONGRATULATIONS on this project, you have been skeptical and harsh sounding about it. Be happy for a potential advancement in the Porsche performance tuning world.
SHAUN
09-05-2002, 11:09 PM
#49
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[quote]Originally posted by PorscheG96:
<strong>You're close Matt, I'm 19. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Trevor,
Thanks for not taking it wrong. I bet you appreciate this project and your 968 alot more since you earned it yourself. Good job.
Shawn, chill out.
-Matt
<strong>You're close Matt, I'm 19. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Trevor,
Thanks for not taking it wrong. I bet you appreciate this project and your 968 alot more since you earned it yourself. Good job.
Shawn, chill out.
-Matt
09-06-2002, 01:09 AM
#50
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I build both conversions, So, maybe I can be objective about this topic.
The SC unit is a thrill to hear, its like a leer jet coming at you, the power is strong. Couple the two together and you have a pretty exotic engine.
The SC kit is easy to install, just about three hours and some basic tools. and you have boost.
THe draw backs are:
NOt really good for racing, other than drag.
Noisy as hell :-) But cool!
Belt change and rebuild along with frequent oil changes in the newer ATI SC units offered in the kits.
Boost is RPM dependent, flat out, you get full boost at redline, unless you make the provision anf a bigger pully on the crank, and a recirc valve that will allow the SC to boost highre sooner and bleed the extra boost at redline.
As far as the turbo goes. On our cars its cleaner, easier to get way with a stock look. Very fast to boost if set up right. Last longer than SC units. You get to keep everything your car came with,....Vario Cam, AC, and even your stock intake system (although there might be some changes made in the 8 valve conversions that basically make it look like a 951 motor).
The turbo charger is great for extended racing, requires no user care and is capable of making great amounts of power.
The turbo may not sound as cool as the SC high pitched jet whine, but for the right person, who is looking for a stock look its the correct choice for sound, looks and power.
Draw backs are:
No cool noises.
Very bland look.
MOre exhaust work than the SC for sure.
Big Turbo lag if its not done right.
Harder to install, many hours of work.
Makes simple chores like oil pan gasket R&R a main task.
Hope this helps.
By the way, I have just completed and delivered to a very good customer the last SC conversion that I will do. He picked it up yesterday. I'll post the pictures later on our website. This is the same Kit that Tim and I developed while we were partners at SFR. So, if your dead set on the SC, please give Tim a call and support SFR :-)
If your looking for a Turbo Conversion, then give me a call! I can make it happen for you.
Take Care!
The SC unit is a thrill to hear, its like a leer jet coming at you, the power is strong. Couple the two together and you have a pretty exotic engine.
The SC kit is easy to install, just about three hours and some basic tools. and you have boost.
THe draw backs are:
NOt really good for racing, other than drag.
Noisy as hell :-) But cool!
Belt change and rebuild along with frequent oil changes in the newer ATI SC units offered in the kits.
Boost is RPM dependent, flat out, you get full boost at redline, unless you make the provision anf a bigger pully on the crank, and a recirc valve that will allow the SC to boost highre sooner and bleed the extra boost at redline.
As far as the turbo goes. On our cars its cleaner, easier to get way with a stock look. Very fast to boost if set up right. Last longer than SC units. You get to keep everything your car came with,....Vario Cam, AC, and even your stock intake system (although there might be some changes made in the 8 valve conversions that basically make it look like a 951 motor).
The turbo charger is great for extended racing, requires no user care and is capable of making great amounts of power.
The turbo may not sound as cool as the SC high pitched jet whine, but for the right person, who is looking for a stock look its the correct choice for sound, looks and power.
Draw backs are:
No cool noises.
Very bland look.
MOre exhaust work than the SC for sure.
Big Turbo lag if its not done right.
Harder to install, many hours of work.
Makes simple chores like oil pan gasket R&R a main task.
Hope this helps.
By the way, I have just completed and delivered to a very good customer the last SC conversion that I will do. He picked it up yesterday. I'll post the pictures later on our website. This is the same Kit that Tim and I developed while we were partners at SFR. So, if your dead set on the SC, please give Tim a call and support SFR :-)
If your looking for a Turbo Conversion, then give me a call! I can make it happen for you.
Take Care!
09-06-2002, 03:18 AM
#51
It's great to have all of these innovative people around who makse all of nice upgrades for our cars.
Only thing i want to point out is those tuners must tell their customers to upgrade cars also some other way than just the engine.944's brakes are not good enough for these engine upgrades.
Olli
'88 951
Only thing i want to point out is those tuners must tell their customers to upgrade cars also some other way than just the engine.944's brakes are not good enough for these engine upgrades.
Olli
'88 951
09-06-2002, 12:28 PM
#53
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Why turbo instead of supercharge? With a centrifugal supercharger the AC needs to be removed because the actual compressor takes the alternator's mounting point and the alternator is moved down to where the AC compressor was.
Actually this will not be the case much longer;^)
With this turbo application full boost hits at 2500 RPM, a supercharger doesn't make full boost until
redline...so you're getting little added bits of boost all through the range with a supercharger instead of having all at once, EARLIER with the turbo.
One thing you failed to mention is that the SC car will still make huge amunts of torque down low with only a couple of psi of boost! Once full boost is reached is where you will make peak power.Power and torque are different and you get both with an SC just like you would with a turbo.
The turbo is proven. How many 200k+ mile 951's are out on the road? We used the exact same parts,
It is true a 951 has been proven but a turbocharged, non-intercooled, high compression 968 is not proven as of yet!
the supercharger is not yet proven.
We have over 7 months and thousands and thousands of miles on our supercharger test cars(16 and 8 valve) without a glitch. No blown headgaskets, no overheating, nothing but pure performance.I would say and I think many will agree, that this is much more proven then your turbo set-up.
Touring cars and full-blown track cars use turbos because they're durable and they multiply torque like crazy.The turbo requires no seperate maintenance, you change the engine oil and that's it.A supercharger has to be serviced [or at least the ones offered for 944 conversions
do] because they're self contained.
This is true(onbly every 6000 miles though) but one of the advantages of this is the SC oiling system does not transfer the thermal load into the rest of the motor.
Basically, turbos are a proven method of increasing power used by Porsche
Yes this is true but Porsche always lowered compression and used an intercooler when they turbocharged a motor that they planned to offer to the public.You did not do any of this! For you to compare your set-up to Poreshce set-up is redundant since they are two completely different set-ups altogether.Only time will tell if your system proves to be reliable.This was not meant as a flame but I didnt want to clarify a few things.Take care.
and we think turbocharging is the best avenue for these cars if you want power!
Actually this will not be the case much longer;^)
With this turbo application full boost hits at 2500 RPM, a supercharger doesn't make full boost until
redline...so you're getting little added bits of boost all through the range with a supercharger instead of having all at once, EARLIER with the turbo.
One thing you failed to mention is that the SC car will still make huge amunts of torque down low with only a couple of psi of boost! Once full boost is reached is where you will make peak power.Power and torque are different and you get both with an SC just like you would with a turbo.
The turbo is proven. How many 200k+ mile 951's are out on the road? We used the exact same parts,
It is true a 951 has been proven but a turbocharged, non-intercooled, high compression 968 is not proven as of yet!
the supercharger is not yet proven.
We have over 7 months and thousands and thousands of miles on our supercharger test cars(16 and 8 valve) without a glitch. No blown headgaskets, no overheating, nothing but pure performance.I would say and I think many will agree, that this is much more proven then your turbo set-up.
Touring cars and full-blown track cars use turbos because they're durable and they multiply torque like crazy.The turbo requires no seperate maintenance, you change the engine oil and that's it.A supercharger has to be serviced [or at least the ones offered for 944 conversions
do] because they're self contained.
This is true(onbly every 6000 miles though) but one of the advantages of this is the SC oiling system does not transfer the thermal load into the rest of the motor.
Basically, turbos are a proven method of increasing power used by Porsche
Yes this is true but Porsche always lowered compression and used an intercooler when they turbocharged a motor that they planned to offer to the public.You did not do any of this! For you to compare your set-up to Poreshce set-up is redundant since they are two completely different set-ups altogether.Only time will tell if your system proves to be reliable.This was not meant as a flame but I didnt want to clarify a few things.Take care.
and we think turbocharging is the best avenue for these cars if you want power!
09-06-2002, 01:45 PM
#54
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Tim -
Make your Supercharger work with AC and I will be buying it quite quickly. I've been resisting my urges to purcahse other goodies for the car so i can save money for one of your kits...
Very excited about the potential of keeping AC...
Thanks to you and John for all the hard work and creative thinking....sometimes you can't get over an obstacle, but you still can go around them...
Paul
Make your Supercharger work with AC and I will be buying it quite quickly. I've been resisting my urges to purcahse other goodies for the car so i can save money for one of your kits...
Very excited about the potential of keeping AC...
Thanks to you and John for all the hard work and creative thinking....sometimes you can't get over an obstacle, but you still can go around them...
Paul
09-06-2002, 09:29 PM
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[quote] Immediate boost with an intercooler vs. slight turbo lag with no intercooler? <hr></blockquote>
Matt,
I feel that I must clear up your misconception.
An intercooler does not reduce turbo lag it INCREASES it.
Think of blowing up a balloon. The larger the balloon is, the longer it will take to fill. Before a turbo can get its compressed air into the combustion chamber, it must first fill up all the plumbing. And thus MORE "Turbo Lag".
The main reason for an intercooler is to cool the intake air charge. When air is compressed it heats up (laws of thermodynamics). A cooler air charge is more dense (= more power), and a cooler air charge will not help promote pre-ignition inside the cylinder (engine killing detonation).
Simply stated, an intercooler increases HP and increases engine life, with the drawback of increased turbo lag.
The reasoning that Turbo Tim is correct in eluding to....a "properly designed" system is the one that will function the best and last the longest.
Matt,
I feel that I must clear up your misconception.
An intercooler does not reduce turbo lag it INCREASES it.
Think of blowing up a balloon. The larger the balloon is, the longer it will take to fill. Before a turbo can get its compressed air into the combustion chamber, it must first fill up all the plumbing. And thus MORE "Turbo Lag".
The main reason for an intercooler is to cool the intake air charge. When air is compressed it heats up (laws of thermodynamics). A cooler air charge is more dense (= more power), and a cooler air charge will not help promote pre-ignition inside the cylinder (engine killing detonation).
Simply stated, an intercooler increases HP and increases engine life, with the drawback of increased turbo lag.
The reasoning that Turbo Tim is correct in eluding to....a "properly designed" system is the one that will function the best and last the longest.
09-06-2002, 10:12 PM
#56
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I guess the big question is...
When the engine blows up, and if John Anderson built or touched it... there's a strong possibility that it will..., who's going to fix it?
John never offered **** to fix the mess he left me with (blown engine at 200+ miles due to a rod not installed correctly) .
When the engine blows up, and if John Anderson built or touched it... there's a strong possibility that it will..., who's going to fix it?
John never offered **** to fix the mess he left me with (blown engine at 200+ miles due to a rod not installed correctly) .
09-06-2002, 10:35 PM
#57
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[quote]Originally posted by TonyG:
<strong>John never offered **** to fix the mess he left me with (blown engine at 200+ miles due to a rod not installed correctly).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hahah, you're the guy who made of total fool of yourself over on 968.net a couple months back...basically everyone told you to get the hell of the board because you're a troll!
We never touched the rods or anything internal for that matter, genius...thanks for playing.
[quote]<strong>I guess the big question is...who's going to fix it?</strong><hr></blockquote>I'd say the bigger question is when you're gonna sprout a growth between your ears? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>John never offered **** to fix the mess he left me with (blown engine at 200+ miles due to a rod not installed correctly).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hahah, you're the guy who made of total fool of yourself over on 968.net a couple months back...basically everyone told you to get the hell of the board because you're a troll!
We never touched the rods or anything internal for that matter, genius...thanks for playing.
[quote]<strong>I guess the big question is...who's going to fix it?</strong><hr></blockquote>I'd say the bigger question is when you're gonna sprout a growth between your ears? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
09-06-2002, 10:50 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Bill:
<strong>
Matt,
I feel that I must clear up your misconception.
An intercooler does not reduce turbo lag it INCREASES it.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Bill,
Thanks for the info. I didn't mean to imply that my thinking was an intercooler decreases turbo lag. Sorry if that's the way my post seemed. Personally, I think an intercooler would be the way to go for more then a few PSI because of the reasons you stated. I would take slight lag with more longevity of the engine any day. Which is why if I had any money I'd probably go with the SC kit. The basic kit is only 5 PSI but from previous corrospondence with Tim (a while ago) an intercooler is very smart if you are considering anything over 5 PSI (as you can upgrade with the SC kit), especially with the higher compression that most of the NA engines run compared to the turbo engines (my 89 na is nearly 11:1 I believe).
Again, thanks for your clearification and sorry if what I posted got misunderstood.
Take care,
Matt
<strong>
Matt,
I feel that I must clear up your misconception.
An intercooler does not reduce turbo lag it INCREASES it.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Bill,
Thanks for the info. I didn't mean to imply that my thinking was an intercooler decreases turbo lag. Sorry if that's the way my post seemed. Personally, I think an intercooler would be the way to go for more then a few PSI because of the reasons you stated. I would take slight lag with more longevity of the engine any day. Which is why if I had any money I'd probably go with the SC kit. The basic kit is only 5 PSI but from previous corrospondence with Tim (a while ago) an intercooler is very smart if you are considering anything over 5 PSI (as you can upgrade with the SC kit), especially with the higher compression that most of the NA engines run compared to the turbo engines (my 89 na is nearly 11:1 I believe).
Again, thanks for your clearification and sorry if what I posted got misunderstood.
Take care,
Matt
09-06-2002, 10:56 PM
#59
Race Director
[quote] Hahah, you're the guy who made of total fool of yourself over on 968.net a couple months back...basically everyone told you to get the hell of the board because you're a troll! <hr></blockquote>
Tonys been around longer than you probably, ie porschefans, porschelist, rennlist email list, now here..hes not exactly a "troll". And whatever any of that has to do with someone timebombing his engine...I have no idea...
Tonys been around longer than you probably, ie porschefans, porschelist, rennlist email list, now here..hes not exactly a "troll". And whatever any of that has to do with someone timebombing his engine...I have no idea...
