ALOT OF PORSCHE MECHANICS ARE CROOKS, please read this...IS THIS BETTER? SHEESH
08-27-2002, 06:20 PM
#46
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Amazing how everyone gets the damn noise when they go in for a clutch change. Ya think these clowns are taking their shot racing tubes and using ours in the race cars and putting the worn out tube in our rides. Don't laugh that is entirely possible. Remember, the only reason these guys even service our cars is to make money to race. I would not put it past them. Tom, you are really knowlegable about our cars and I know you take care of yours. Tubes do not just go bad!!!! They start to whine and hiss way before they go bad. I find it hard to believe that your tube could just go bad. Funny that my S2 was a really quite car until I had the clutch changed then when I got it back rattle rattle rattle. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
08-27-2002, 06:21 PM
#47
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FX,
I have a GREAT (read: not cheap, but honest and very high standards) mechanic in southeastern CT. If you want the reference for him I'll dig it up. Email me.
His name is Michael Haines, but I don't have the number off hand.
He has done major work for me: valve job, belts, water pump, etc. and has been truly great about it.
The car runs so smooth. Sounds like you need to chat with him.
Any mechanic will tend ot suggest fixes that you may not see as justified. Maybe he just assumes if it isn't functioning at stock specs you would want to replace it.
As for Michael, he may be obsessive about nearly perfect condition of all components, but he gets it done and does it well.
I have a GREAT (read: not cheap, but honest and very high standards) mechanic in southeastern CT. If you want the reference for him I'll dig it up. Email me.
His name is Michael Haines, but I don't have the number off hand.
He has done major work for me: valve job, belts, water pump, etc. and has been truly great about it.
The car runs so smooth. Sounds like you need to chat with him.
Any mechanic will tend ot suggest fixes that you may not see as justified. Maybe he just assumes if it isn't functioning at stock specs you would want to replace it.
As for Michael, he may be obsessive about nearly perfect condition of all components, but he gets it done and does it well.
08-27-2002, 06:41 PM
#50
Race Director
I will say one more thing.
I went to the Porsche dealer and tried to order a part and confused the hell out of them.."A 951? whats that?" And while I was in there they were replacing the top on a 911 cab.
One guy in the back was like, "The owner keeps calling!! I dont know how to attach the top!! and another guy says.."Come on, Well go throw it on some way or another!"
This is while I am standing there!! I turned and walked right out and still wonder about that poor 911 cab.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
I went to the Porsche dealer and tried to order a part and confused the hell out of them.."A 951? whats that?" And while I was in there they were replacing the top on a 911 cab.
One guy in the back was like, "The owner keeps calling!! I dont know how to attach the top!! and another guy says.."Come on, Well go throw it on some way or another!"
This is while I am standing there!! I turned and walked right out and still wonder about that poor 911 cab.
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">
08-27-2002, 07:16 PM
#51
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[quote]Originally posted by Tom Pultz:
<strong>
I just get a lot of gear rattle under light loads in 2nd and 3rd, or under load at 2000 rpm in 3rd (don't normally drive this way but it's one way to make the noise) it sounds like something is going to explode back there.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tom, do I recall correctly that you went with the spring center clutch? I have gotten exactly the noises you describe since installing a spring center clutch several years ago, and it has gotten progressively louder over time as I continue to abuse the transmission on the track. I know some of the details of the 968 setup are different, but it is the same basic configuration.
On my car, I believe it is not from any problem except the combination of noise from worn transaxle gears and bearings plus the deletion of the rubber clutch center (whose function is largely to suppress noises like that). That is why I caution people on the spring center clutch for street cars - they can be noisy, and people have different tolerances for noise. I'd find it really unpleasant to drive mine every day.
Matt
<strong>
I just get a lot of gear rattle under light loads in 2nd and 3rd, or under load at 2000 rpm in 3rd (don't normally drive this way but it's one way to make the noise) it sounds like something is going to explode back there.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tom, do I recall correctly that you went with the spring center clutch? I have gotten exactly the noises you describe since installing a spring center clutch several years ago, and it has gotten progressively louder over time as I continue to abuse the transmission on the track. I know some of the details of the 968 setup are different, but it is the same basic configuration.
On my car, I believe it is not from any problem except the combination of noise from worn transaxle gears and bearings plus the deletion of the rubber clutch center (whose function is largely to suppress noises like that). That is why I caution people on the spring center clutch for street cars - they can be noisy, and people have different tolerances for noise. I'd find it really unpleasant to drive mine every day.
Matt
08-27-2002, 07:22 PM
#52
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[quote]Originally posted by FXMaster:
<strong>Tubes do not just go bad!!!! </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, they do - the process of replacing a clutch is detrimental to all of the nuts, bolts, and other parts touched or removed to facilitate the change. The same principle may be applied to your given profession in the computer industry - the more you touch it, or use it, the more it breaks - on/off button failure on monitors is a prime example of unnecessary roughness (5 yards). Some amount of damage may be realized each time the clutch is replaced.
Looking in the far reaches of Tom's mind (digging real deep) I can see that he supposes that the torque tube failure was exacerbated by the unbalanced flywheel... certainly possible.
My tenure with my 86na started with an engine fire (small hose failure), then moved on to a clutch (rubber failure), then a steering rack (blown end seals), then both control arms (at once), then nearly all the electronic and fuel parts in the engine bay (including DME, FPR, TPS, ISV, ABCDEFG), then an engine (#2 rod bearing), then a transmission (r&p), and I currently need one new ball-joint (again), both front control arm bushings (again), new front wheel bearings (again), and a partridge in a pear tree.
Oh, and I do all my own work
S
<strong>Tubes do not just go bad!!!! </strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, they do - the process of replacing a clutch is detrimental to all of the nuts, bolts, and other parts touched or removed to facilitate the change. The same principle may be applied to your given profession in the computer industry - the more you touch it, or use it, the more it breaks - on/off button failure on monitors is a prime example of unnecessary roughness (5 yards). Some amount of damage may be realized each time the clutch is replaced.
Looking in the far reaches of Tom's mind (digging real deep) I can see that he supposes that the torque tube failure was exacerbated by the unbalanced flywheel... certainly possible.
My tenure with my 86na started with an engine fire (small hose failure), then moved on to a clutch (rubber failure), then a steering rack (blown end seals), then both control arms (at once), then nearly all the electronic and fuel parts in the engine bay (including DME, FPR, TPS, ISV, ABCDEFG), then an engine (#2 rod bearing), then a transmission (r&p), and I currently need one new ball-joint (again), both front control arm bushings (again), new front wheel bearings (again), and a partridge in a pear tree.
Oh, and I do all my own work
S
08-27-2002, 07:42 PM
#53
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"Yes, they do - the process of replacing a clutch is detrimental to all of the nuts, bolts, and other parts touched or removed to facilitate the change"
Pal, the driveshaft sits in the middle of three bearings I believe. This thing rotates at ungodly speeds without detriment until it becomes worn out. When it starts to wear out you will hear the whine and humm coming from what sounds like your shifter. I was there when they took the tube out once. There is nothing in that process that would make the tube go bad. Then when they put it back in, rattle rattle rattle. I don't believe for a second that it was the removal. Anyway, maybe they put it back in with a sledge hammer...All I know is when your tube is bad you will hear this whine, sounds almost like a cow dying. I know other guys have heard this. This did not appear until I got the car back.
Pal, the driveshaft sits in the middle of three bearings I believe. This thing rotates at ungodly speeds without detriment until it becomes worn out. When it starts to wear out you will hear the whine and humm coming from what sounds like your shifter. I was there when they took the tube out once. There is nothing in that process that would make the tube go bad. Then when they put it back in, rattle rattle rattle. I don't believe for a second that it was the removal. Anyway, maybe they put it back in with a sledge hammer...All I know is when your tube is bad you will hear this whine, sounds almost like a cow dying. I know other guys have heard this. This did not appear until I got the car back.
08-27-2002, 08:08 PM
#54
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Pal? - I'm honored...
So there's no way preload could be entered into the installation of the splined input shaft by slightly offsetting the tube during reassembly. Not trying to vouch for anybody's work, but when things come apart, they invariably do not go back together exactly as before. My point was to assert that anything is possible - to say it is not lacks proper consideration. Your symptoms that that lead to failure are as told - no argument.
S
So there's no way preload could be entered into the installation of the splined input shaft by slightly offsetting the tube during reassembly. Not trying to vouch for anybody's work, but when things come apart, they invariably do not go back together exactly as before. My point was to assert that anything is possible - to say it is not lacks proper consideration. Your symptoms that that lead to failure are as told - no argument.
S
08-27-2002, 08:29 PM
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I have to agree with Skip. I was a Fiat wrench long ago and I saw the same phenomenea occur. There were a couple of times when parts didn't fail gradually, just at once and catastrophically. Case in point was differential gear. All we did was replace the u-joints and the clutch. Put it all back together and boom- stipped ring gear. So it does happen. However, in your case I'm thinking you may well be getting ripped off.
08-27-2002, 08:32 PM
#56
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Skip's right about older machines. They have a delicate equilibrium that develops over time... parts wear to fit their mates and no other... and the minute you change/refresh a part, you run the risk of having associated older parts fail.
The most dangerous time for an older car is when it's being serviced.
Thaddeus
The most dangerous time for an older car is when it's being serviced.
Thaddeus
08-27-2002, 08:50 PM
#57
[quote]Originally posted by IceShark:
<strong> What the heck is this torque tube tremble "common" problem?
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
My mechanic told me he avoids this by scribing the torque tube so he can put it back in the exact place he removed it.
<strong> What the heck is this torque tube tremble "common" problem?
.</strong><hr></blockquote>
My mechanic told me he avoids this by scribing the torque tube so he can put it back in the exact place he removed it.
08-27-2002, 09:04 PM
#58
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Guys,
In doing my clutch on on 951 I have noticed the following. There was a green mark on the input shaft to the tranny. I also noted that the rear coupling had holes drilled in it. Obviously the coupling had balance operation perform on it. I thought the green mark might be a reference mark so I marked the coupling to ensure the proper side attached to the tranny and the torque tube and that the green mark was lined up right. unforuntaly I did not mark the postion of the torque tube.
It clear to me than any high speed rotating shaft needs to be balanced propely. Any change in these coupling or the relationship between them can unduce an imbalance and therefore vibration. I am not sure if this has happend to anyone or if my failure to mark the torque tube will impact me, but it is a concern.
I did do a tranny swap my 944 na and did not worry about balance and it seems to be fine. Unfortunatly is has no interior and is loud as a tank so it hard to tell for sure.
BTW: Until now I have done all my work myself. I just had the tranny rebuilt (new syncros). I took it to a local guy who respect greatly and trully believe that he will do an excellent job. I have know the guy for a couple years before this and have known much good work to come from his shop.
Only time will tell if the tranny turns out fine.
Just rememeber you get what you pay for the cheapest is not always the best. Then again high cost does not ensure quality. Finding a good tech you can trust is tough! Local word of mouth is probably the best for this.
M758
In doing my clutch on on 951 I have noticed the following. There was a green mark on the input shaft to the tranny. I also noted that the rear coupling had holes drilled in it. Obviously the coupling had balance operation perform on it. I thought the green mark might be a reference mark so I marked the coupling to ensure the proper side attached to the tranny and the torque tube and that the green mark was lined up right. unforuntaly I did not mark the postion of the torque tube.
It clear to me than any high speed rotating shaft needs to be balanced propely. Any change in these coupling or the relationship between them can unduce an imbalance and therefore vibration. I am not sure if this has happend to anyone or if my failure to mark the torque tube will impact me, but it is a concern.
I did do a tranny swap my 944 na and did not worry about balance and it seems to be fine. Unfortunatly is has no interior and is loud as a tank so it hard to tell for sure.
BTW: Until now I have done all my work myself. I just had the tranny rebuilt (new syncros). I took it to a local guy who respect greatly and trully believe that he will do an excellent job. I have know the guy for a couple years before this and have known much good work to come from his shop.
Only time will tell if the tranny turns out fine.
Just rememeber you get what you pay for the cheapest is not always the best. Then again high cost does not ensure quality. Finding a good tech you can trust is tough! Local word of mouth is probably the best for this.
M758
08-27-2002, 09:09 PM
#59
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lets just beat this into everyones head because this is definitely a fact:
with older cars (machines) replacing an old part with a brand new one will almost always raise your chances of the parts associated with this part going bad soon after. its just the way it is.
its why people go and replace almost everything when they do a small job in these cars.
these cars are still much more art than machine, maybe the new ones are a little bit more from-the-mold. but these things are brittle.
when i changed my radiator.. my waterpump went the next week.. hmm wonder why. yea i bet my mechanic sabotaged it! not.
fxmaster, you are a cool guy, and venting on here is great, but now its time to calm down and get down to business. call those mechanics, see what they are all about, and take the next step. enough is enough.. why make enemies with everyone here? oh and dont yell at the nice mechanics that people referred you to like you are at all the rennlisters, only because some of us might want to use them sometime soon
namely me, hehe. 
good luck with everything man
with older cars (machines) replacing an old part with a brand new one will almost always raise your chances of the parts associated with this part going bad soon after. its just the way it is.
its why people go and replace almost everything when they do a small job in these cars.
these cars are still much more art than machine, maybe the new ones are a little bit more from-the-mold. but these things are brittle.
when i changed my radiator.. my waterpump went the next week.. hmm wonder why. yea i bet my mechanic sabotaged it! not.
fxmaster, you are a cool guy, and venting on here is great, but now its time to calm down and get down to business. call those mechanics, see what they are all about, and take the next step. enough is enough.. why make enemies with everyone here? oh and dont yell at the nice mechanics that people referred you to like you are at all the rennlisters, only because some of us might want to use them sometime soon
namely me, hehe. good luck with everything man
08-27-2002, 09:10 PM
#60
Drifting
Scribing what on the torque tube? The splined ends?
BTW, why would anyone remove a torque tube from the car to do a clutch replacement? You'd have to drop the torsion bar housing to do so. You simply slide the torque tube back and rotate it to clear the compression hooks...
Another BTW, the boss and I were discussing this today, and he says he's heard of guys not removing the tranny to do clutch work, simply unbolting the mount and sliding the whole assembly back, with tube attached. This puts a lot of weight on the end of the tube, which is still held by the torsion bar housing - could theoretically flex the tube to the point of internal failure?
And yes, I wrench (on and off) because a good mechanic is HARD to find. However, I've also seen more than one customer come in the door already defensive about being ripped off (and some that steal their cars without paying!).
So, everybody sucks in the end.
Oh yeah - 4 hours for torque tube replacement is still fishy.
BTW, why would anyone remove a torque tube from the car to do a clutch replacement? You'd have to drop the torsion bar housing to do so. You simply slide the torque tube back and rotate it to clear the compression hooks...
Another BTW, the boss and I were discussing this today, and he says he's heard of guys not removing the tranny to do clutch work, simply unbolting the mount and sliding the whole assembly back, with tube attached. This puts a lot of weight on the end of the tube, which is still held by the torsion bar housing - could theoretically flex the tube to the point of internal failure?
And yes, I wrench (on and off) because a good mechanic is HARD to find. However, I've also seen more than one customer come in the door already defensive about being ripped off (and some that steal their cars without paying!).
So, everybody sucks in the end.
Oh yeah - 4 hours for torque tube replacement is still fishy.