ALOT OF PORSCHE MECHANICS ARE CROOKS, please read this...IS THIS BETTER? SHEESH
08-27-2002, 12:41 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: North Of Chicago
Posts: 1,992
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First off ALL Porsche mechanics are NOT crooks, to write that down makes you as bad as they are.
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
I will say that I do all the work on my car myself, that way if something goes wrong, I can only be mad at myself. Nothing worse than paying someone to do the job right and have it come out wrong. Find a new mechanic, there has to be someone out there in CT who can and will do the job right, you just haven't found him yet.
<img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
I will say that I do all the work on my car myself, that way if something goes wrong, I can only be mad at myself. Nothing worse than paying someone to do the job right and have it come out wrong. Find a new mechanic, there has to be someone out there in CT who can and will do the job right, you just haven't found him yet.
08-27-2002, 01:14 PM
#17
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: CT
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Riff, when you spend almost $11,000 then you can talk. And yes I do have the right to say that. I work hard for my money. These mechanics don't give me the money. Damnit, if I did the same kind of job these guys did at my job I'd be fired!!! Why not expect what you paid for. If you ask for a steak at a restarant you gonna be happy if they give you chicken??? There is always someone who wants to preach. Well brother keep on walkin because I've earned my ****ing stripes in this battle. This scam that these guys have going on is outrageous. They feed on ignorance and take advantage of it. I can't work on my own car because I work full time during the day as a network analyst and at night I have my own business building PC's for clients. I wish I had the time to learn becuase I would do it right. I would even go as far as MA or NY to find someone who only works on 44's and would tell me exactly what the hell is going on. Not this lame as answer "yeah, leave it here in the morning, we'll have it diagnosed when you come back tonight" when I get there they start talking about "Yeah, we checked the torque tube it looks absolutley fine" *******, then why is my shifter rocking back and forth like it's having a siezure. DID YOU NOT EVEN DRIVE THE CAR FOR ALL THAT IS FREAKING HOLY!!!!!!!
08-27-2002, 01:18 PM
#19
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: CT
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I earn my living pal. I don't feed off my customers and milk them for everything and then give them a crap product. Every PC I build I take the care to build it as if it were my own. And yes, not all mechanics are crooks, there are you happy. But about 95% of them are and the ones that are not don't really care about 944. Just the money.
08-27-2002, 01:36 PM
#20
Addict
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Rennlist
Lifetime Member
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: CT
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time to take a deep breath, okay? Not all Porsche mechanics are crooks by any stretch. I know the owners and mechanics at three main independent Porsche shops in CT, and I find them to be competent and honest. They don't view me as a big spender, or hardly a spender at all, as I do almost all my work myself - but all three have helped me out at different times. (Maybe the fourth you mention is the one that tends to specialize in 356/4-cam work? I don't know them personally).
I know it's hard to not become emotional when something goes wrong with our babies (and I commend your forebearance in identifying the shop), but it helps to remember a few things.
These are old cars now. They are wearing out. They will break with increasing frequency as time goes on, and repairing them is more than just an exercise in parts replacement.
Sometimes installing a new part exposes the weakness of other related parts that seemed to be okay before.
It is expensive to run a shop, and we have to expect the owners to charge enough to make a decent living.
Repairs sometimes do not go perfectly the first time, sometimes not the second. That is a fact of life, and the most productive response is a calm and rational conversation about it with the shop, and mutual cooperation to get the problem straightened out.
I'm not saying that you haven't been mistreated here, I have no way to judge that. But I will say that in my experience, and from others' accounts, these particular shops stand behind their work.
On your particular repairs, a couple of points -
I haven't heard of torque tube vibrations being a common problem (though I recall Tom's problem), except in cases where the bearings are worn out. I do recall some discussion on the mail list a while back about Sachs changing its design (the TOB maybe?) and that causing some problems. It's worth checking out. Also, if you changed to a spring center clutch, you can end up with additional noise and vibration.
What do you mean by "changed the whole front suspension"? If you mean shocks (struts) and control arms, that is entirely normal for a 12 year old car with that kind of mileage. If you mean they did it without getting an okay from you, that is another story, of course.
As for the mechanics shunning your car to work on 911's, well I dunno. I haven't had any problem like that with my pissant little 924S track car. Not to say a shop won't take care of a customer who's spent $50k there on his race car before taking care of me - that'll happen, and I don't think it's wrong.
Okay, end of long winded sermon.
Matt
I know it's hard to not become emotional when something goes wrong with our babies (and I commend your forebearance in identifying the shop), but it helps to remember a few things.
These are old cars now. They are wearing out. They will break with increasing frequency as time goes on, and repairing them is more than just an exercise in parts replacement.
Sometimes installing a new part exposes the weakness of other related parts that seemed to be okay before.
It is expensive to run a shop, and we have to expect the owners to charge enough to make a decent living.
Repairs sometimes do not go perfectly the first time, sometimes not the second. That is a fact of life, and the most productive response is a calm and rational conversation about it with the shop, and mutual cooperation to get the problem straightened out.
I'm not saying that you haven't been mistreated here, I have no way to judge that. But I will say that in my experience, and from others' accounts, these particular shops stand behind their work.
On your particular repairs, a couple of points -
I haven't heard of torque tube vibrations being a common problem (though I recall Tom's problem), except in cases where the bearings are worn out. I do recall some discussion on the mail list a while back about Sachs changing its design (the TOB maybe?) and that causing some problems. It's worth checking out. Also, if you changed to a spring center clutch, you can end up with additional noise and vibration.
What do you mean by "changed the whole front suspension"? If you mean shocks (struts) and control arms, that is entirely normal for a 12 year old car with that kind of mileage. If you mean they did it without getting an okay from you, that is another story, of course.
As for the mechanics shunning your car to work on 911's, well I dunno. I haven't had any problem like that with my pissant little 924S track car. Not to say a shop won't take care of a customer who's spent $50k there on his race car before taking care of me - that'll happen, and I don't think it's wrong.
Okay, end of long winded sermon.
Matt
08-27-2002, 01:46 PM
#21
Instructor
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: CT
Posts: 200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the reply matt. I understand your point of view. but a few points of my own. These cars are all over engineered. I do not abuse my cars. Problems started peeking their heads when repairs where done incorrectly. I have had the entire driveline replaced, tranny, tranny mounts, tube, clutch, everything. This is a case of not enough problem solving and just standard by the book slap it in. The tranny on this car has been down four times. FOUR TIMES, Give me a break. Anyway, I'm mad at the way these guys treat most of us. If it weren't the case then we would not have all these postings of horror stories. I'm really just confused and fed up and my car is sitting in the garage now and I don't have the cash anymore to keep giving it to these guys. I need to start enjoying my car not paying for their kids collage tuition. Pathetic. My boys all have work done on their cars including american and rice burners. These guys really abuse their old cars and they are not over engineered like our cars. But they don't have half of the problems. There is something seriously wrong going on here, I'm not imagining this...
08-27-2002, 02:04 PM
#22
Thinking outside da' bun...
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
I think part of the problem with all this is Porsches need a lot of maintenance, routine and otherwise, to keep in good working condition. I also think their build quality, at least in the 944, leaves a tremendous to be desired. Half the threads in this forum revolve around things that just stop working, and how many threads have we seen from people who are fed up with things and want to sell.
Not that Porsches or 944s cant be reliable, or you cant find a good one that doesnt need a rebuilt trammy every 1000 miles, but the facts are, too much on these cars fall apart when it simply shouldnt. Take a mid 80s Honda Accord and the ***** stay on, the sunroof never fails, the dash lights dont go dim, and on and on. The case can be made that its the German engineering thats so fickle and pioneering that causes most of this, but screw the engineering is my opinion. When everything is said and done, Porsche sells cars based on BHP and Torque and handling and thats no excuse to build cars that need so many small or intermediate things replaced. Sure, routine service is one thing -- timing belts, water pumps, et al, are just the cost of doing business and owning a Porsche -- but in so many cases on here, its the other stuff that turns one-time Porsche owners into former owners b/c they are fed up with the frustration of working like a dog to keep the A/C working, the sunroof operable, the motor mounts okay, etc etc.
Which leads me to the mechanics. Mechanics know they own a premium on knowledge, or a lack of knowledge on the part of the guy bringing his car into the shop. The mechanics can tell you a $20 part is needed or a $2000 part and who are most of us to definitively have enough knowledge to prove him wrong. After all, hes the professional and he should know.
But mechanics on the whole use this wealth of power or powerlessness to change parts that work fine, fix things that arent broken, break things that are fixed, or on and on. There's no money in sticking a car on a jack and fixing a inoperable car with a new spark plug, but there is in selling a new engine. Ive always been a believer that ALL my cars, Porsches and non-Porsches, have been returned to me from the mechanic in far worse shape then when I brought it in. Its to the point where I wait on taking it in until I have to, knowing 500 miles after I get it back I may need a $2000 fix on something that worked fine beforehand.
So yeah I agree that finding a good mechanic who's honest is rare. Sort of like a good car salesman who tells you that you cant afford a new car and should look at something cheaper or financed much shorter.
But the ***** of this post is that if Porsche had built these cars more carefully at the beginning, a lot of us wouldnt be at the repair shop so often. German engineering my left foot. Thats just a cop out. Japan had no problems making NSXs run w/o large maintenance bills so it can be done and could have been done. Granted I think newer Porsches have come a long way.
Perhaps Porsche intentionally built them this way to make money years down the line in upkeep. Who really knows.
Dont get me wrong. I love my Porsche. And Im one of the fortunate ones to have a very reliable one. But I understand the pain of those who either dont or run into repairs that seemingly defy all logical and reasoning.
End of sidebar.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
Not that Porsches or 944s cant be reliable, or you cant find a good one that doesnt need a rebuilt trammy every 1000 miles, but the facts are, too much on these cars fall apart when it simply shouldnt. Take a mid 80s Honda Accord and the ***** stay on, the sunroof never fails, the dash lights dont go dim, and on and on. The case can be made that its the German engineering thats so fickle and pioneering that causes most of this, but screw the engineering is my opinion. When everything is said and done, Porsche sells cars based on BHP and Torque and handling and thats no excuse to build cars that need so many small or intermediate things replaced. Sure, routine service is one thing -- timing belts, water pumps, et al, are just the cost of doing business and owning a Porsche -- but in so many cases on here, its the other stuff that turns one-time Porsche owners into former owners b/c they are fed up with the frustration of working like a dog to keep the A/C working, the sunroof operable, the motor mounts okay, etc etc.
Which leads me to the mechanics. Mechanics know they own a premium on knowledge, or a lack of knowledge on the part of the guy bringing his car into the shop. The mechanics can tell you a $20 part is needed or a $2000 part and who are most of us to definitively have enough knowledge to prove him wrong. After all, hes the professional and he should know.
But mechanics on the whole use this wealth of power or powerlessness to change parts that work fine, fix things that arent broken, break things that are fixed, or on and on. There's no money in sticking a car on a jack and fixing a inoperable car with a new spark plug, but there is in selling a new engine. Ive always been a believer that ALL my cars, Porsches and non-Porsches, have been returned to me from the mechanic in far worse shape then when I brought it in. Its to the point where I wait on taking it in until I have to, knowing 500 miles after I get it back I may need a $2000 fix on something that worked fine beforehand.
So yeah I agree that finding a good mechanic who's honest is rare. Sort of like a good car salesman who tells you that you cant afford a new car and should look at something cheaper or financed much shorter.
But the ***** of this post is that if Porsche had built these cars more carefully at the beginning, a lot of us wouldnt be at the repair shop so often. German engineering my left foot. Thats just a cop out. Japan had no problems making NSXs run w/o large maintenance bills so it can be done and could have been done. Granted I think newer Porsches have come a long way.
Perhaps Porsche intentionally built them this way to make money years down the line in upkeep. Who really knows.
Dont get me wrong. I love my Porsche. And Im one of the fortunate ones to have a very reliable one. But I understand the pain of those who either dont or run into repairs that seemingly defy all logical and reasoning.
End of sidebar.
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />
08-27-2002, 02:08 PM
#23
Pro
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southern Connecticut
Posts: 533
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can fully understand your frustration. The funny thing is (even though it really isn't too funny) that I got burned very badly by two seemingly reputable shops in Southern CT. I finally found a VERY competent shop to do the work on my 944. They have been extremely reasonable and very efficient at diagnosing and fixing a myriad of problems left by my previous mechanics. They even corrected the previously mis-diagnosed power steering pump and rack replacement suggestion(by the aformentioned rip-off shop) and concluded that I just needed a hose. Tell me the shops that you have used (in a private e-mail)...I wonder if we used the same places.
Publicly, I have no problem saying that the absolute worst experience that I have ever had at getting absolutly hosed was at CARUSO MOTORSPORTS in WESTPORT, CT. I'll show anybody the $2600 that he charged me for a standard clutch replacement, the complete BS diagnosis that he made saying that I needed to have my master and slave cylenders replaced, even though they were replaced only 6 months earlier, and another brilliant conclusion; after only putting 1300 miles on the car since he changed the clutch, he said that it needed to be replaced again!!!
These last claims led to me changing shops and finding out that it was only air in the lines because I had parked the car on an incline for a few days, and with the fluid already being low, sucked some air in while depressing the clutch.
I could go on and on...
Publicly, I have no problem saying that the absolute worst experience that I have ever had at getting absolutly hosed was at CARUSO MOTORSPORTS in WESTPORT, CT. I'll show anybody the $2600 that he charged me for a standard clutch replacement, the complete BS diagnosis that he made saying that I needed to have my master and slave cylenders replaced, even though they were replaced only 6 months earlier, and another brilliant conclusion; after only putting 1300 miles on the car since he changed the clutch, he said that it needed to be replaced again!!!
These last claims led to me changing shops and finding out that it was only air in the lines because I had parked the car on an incline for a few days, and with the fluid already being low, sucked some air in while depressing the clutch.
I could go on and on...
08-27-2002, 02:37 PM
#25
Racer
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: PA
Posts: 495
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
[quote]Originally posted by FXMaster:
<strong>I would even go as far as MA or NY to find someone who only works on 44's and would tell me exactly what the hell is going on. </strong><hr></blockquote>
If that's the case, then I'd highly recommend Bill Pfister at Eurotech Advanced Automotive on Grant Street in Framingham, MA.
They work on everything Porsche, and have been working on my S2 since I got it. As I write this, he is working on my car. (He is fixing a tranny seal, which involves the tranny removal and torque tube removal as well I guess. I'll let you know if something goes awry... but I don't anticipate it. FWIW, while he had the tranny out, he noticed a fuel line that had dry rot... and recommended that it be replaced. If it wasn't for this attention to detail, who knows... my car could have gone POOF over the next few weeks, or on the track next month at Summit Point!!)
Bill is very knowledgeable, has a great attention to detail, and cares very much about his customers and their cars. I highly recommend him and the guys that work there for him. Give him a call... take the drive up here... and restore your faith.
Good luck.
<strong>I would even go as far as MA or NY to find someone who only works on 44's and would tell me exactly what the hell is going on. </strong><hr></blockquote>
If that's the case, then I'd highly recommend Bill Pfister at Eurotech Advanced Automotive on Grant Street in Framingham, MA.
They work on everything Porsche, and have been working on my S2 since I got it. As I write this, he is working on my car. (He is fixing a tranny seal, which involves the tranny removal and torque tube removal as well I guess. I'll let you know if something goes awry... but I don't anticipate it. FWIW, while he had the tranny out, he noticed a fuel line that had dry rot... and recommended that it be replaced. If it wasn't for this attention to detail, who knows... my car could have gone POOF over the next few weeks, or on the track next month at Summit Point!!)
Bill is very knowledgeable, has a great attention to detail, and cares very much about his customers and their cars. I highly recommend him and the guys that work there for him. Give him a call... take the drive up here... and restore your faith.
Good luck.
08-27-2002, 02:51 PM
#26
Pro
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Westport MA
Posts: 649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've benn lucky with my 944 as I bought an unmolested one and have done everything myself. My wife'd audi has been a different story due to time constraints I took it to have front end work done and got the rip-off treatment. I dcided that I must do everything on that car also to have true peace of mind that things are done right and that there are not other things hanging. I think that is the most annoying thing when these people seem to work on the cars with thier eyes shut. They focus only on one thing at a time and don't notice or process that they could be helpful and efficient at the same time. Most are idiots, but some are really good. All are human.
Art
Art
08-27-2002, 03:02 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Join Date: May 2001
Location: North Of Chicago
Posts: 1,992
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FX-
I work hard for my money like everyone else. In fact, I don't have extra money to throw around so I do the work on the car myself. I am sorry to hear that you've spent tons of cash and not received good service but railing against ALL Porsche mechs is wrong. The ones you've dealt with have mis-treated you and that is bad, but to claim they are ALL the same is also bad. That is all I was saying.
Peace,
I work hard for my money like everyone else. In fact, I don't have extra money to throw around so I do the work on the car myself. I am sorry to hear that you've spent tons of cash and not received good service but railing against ALL Porsche mechs is wrong. The ones you've dealt with have mis-treated you and that is bad, but to claim they are ALL the same is also bad. That is all I was saying.
Peace,
08-27-2002, 03:32 PM
#29
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Pedro, Calif.
Posts: 480
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My two cents:
Regarding the 944 engineering and the put downs thereof, many of us agree:
1. They are sports car, therefor engineered for light weight, horsepower, and reliability... in that order.
2. They are old, sure you can point to a Honda that is in better condition than your 944 but that is a matter of how the car has been taken care of. I have seen 944 that look like they just rolled off the showroom floor... and some that look like they are headed for the junkyard (same for Honda or any make)
3. 944 owners post to get answers to problems they are having but it is extremely rare for any of us to post how reliable our car is when it is running well. Therefor if you keep going over this board you can get a unfair idea of how reliable the 944 is. I was almost scared away from the 944 after looking at the BBS's but made the leap anyway and I am still very happy with my purchase. That is to say for every post about something wrong there is probably ten (or a hundred) 944 owners out there who's car is running fine.
Sorry for the rant, I suppose this doesn't help much with your mechanic problem, to be honest I am a little afraid of what I am going to do if/when I have to get some major work done on my car. I have started socializing with some fellow Porsche owners in my area, I met them on the internet and there is also PCA and POC. Todd (toddwic) and Hugh (SoCal driver) have given me some tips that have helped me to be a little more confident about working on my car. They also helped me see that it's just a car and not some "holy cow" that only the sacred Porsche mechanic can touch.
Obviously by networking with other Porsche owner you can swap info about mechanic's and part's suppliers.
Hope that helps,
Scott
1984 944 144,000 miles, owned for two years, only have change plugs - fluids - filters - burns no oil - runs great!
Regarding the 944 engineering and the put downs thereof, many of us agree:
1. They are sports car, therefor engineered for light weight, horsepower, and reliability... in that order.
2. They are old, sure you can point to a Honda that is in better condition than your 944 but that is a matter of how the car has been taken care of. I have seen 944 that look like they just rolled off the showroom floor... and some that look like they are headed for the junkyard (same for Honda or any make)
3. 944 owners post to get answers to problems they are having but it is extremely rare for any of us to post how reliable our car is when it is running well. Therefor if you keep going over this board you can get a unfair idea of how reliable the 944 is. I was almost scared away from the 944 after looking at the BBS's but made the leap anyway and I am still very happy with my purchase. That is to say for every post about something wrong there is probably ten (or a hundred) 944 owners out there who's car is running fine.
Sorry for the rant, I suppose this doesn't help much with your mechanic problem, to be honest I am a little afraid of what I am going to do if/when I have to get some major work done on my car. I have started socializing with some fellow Porsche owners in my area, I met them on the internet and there is also PCA and POC. Todd (toddwic) and Hugh (SoCal driver) have given me some tips that have helped me to be a little more confident about working on my car. They also helped me see that it's just a car and not some "holy cow" that only the sacred Porsche mechanic can touch.
Obviously by networking with other Porsche owner you can swap info about mechanic's and part's suppliers.
Hope that helps,
Scott
1984 944 144,000 miles, owned for two years, only have change plugs - fluids - filters - burns no oil - runs great!
08-27-2002, 03:54 PM
#30
Race Director
My mechanic (Private shop) Foreign Performance in Evansville, IN is awesome. Top notch work, generous with the labor by the hour. COMPLETELY honest. And he owns the same car as me. He knows the car in and out and his pride shows in his MINT 86 951 with 14,000 miles and his willingness to show you the problem and explain it, not just do it and bill you. Great guy. Hes done everything in the last 5 years and everything has been A+ work.
Maybe you should move down here
Maybe you should move down here