Fed up with Porsche
08-12-2002, 09:37 AM
#1
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Fed up with Porsche
I am going to attempt to try and rectify the 3 issues I have with my machine this afternoon....
(PS Pump leak, headlight shorting out, and the fuel leak)).
After that I only have interior work (fix seats, fix loose trim), body and paintwork, fix my AC, and replace 4 broken speakers).
This car is never ready.....frankly, I think it has become the least reliable machine I have ever owned. Any other car would have been tossed long ago with expenses like these. I am starting to lose the warm fuzzies with the Porsche product.
Have you guys driven the new Boxster? How is that machine in anyway an improvement over our 944 Turbos? It seems to me that I can get a lot more machine, in a reliable product, from MANY other manufacturers for a LOT less $$.
I think I have been tolerating a lot of these issues, because it is a PORSCHE....would we keep our cars and put up with this stuff if it was a Civic? Hell no. 2 years ago I bought a 99 Civic Si, I drove that harder than I ever did this Porsche...never had 1 problem. Not 1. That car routinely bounced over 8000 rpm. I got rid of it, b/c I was too tall, and the brakes on the Civic take longer to stop it than a Chevy Suburban.
Granted, whenver I drive my 951.5 I fall in love with the handling, etc. But after 8 years I am now mad. I have a 3 ring binder with hundreds of receipts.
Last weekend I helped install some go fast parts, and more importantly, suspension upgrades to my neighbors 2001 Mustang GT. That car is now a fun ride. The factory handling was a joke, but we installed some coil-overs, and new tires, camber plates (for 1/2 what it cost us porsche owners). He also had the exhaust upgraded. His car is now a blast. And reliable.
Our buddy has a 95 Mustang GT, with some mods, and his car will outperform, and out handle mine. (He also does a lot of DE's and auto-crosses), and his car is totally reliable.
Does anyone else get these feelings of resentment from time to time? I realize most of the things people are going to say about the Civics and the mustangs, but come on, these cars are desinged to be driven in a manner thats fun, usually as a 3rd car. We always take about Porsche engineering, and Ferrari finnicki-ness (?) and what I have experienced is quality that is below that of the average honda civic...
Thoughts, comments, questions?
Fire suit engaged.
I'll step of my <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> now.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
(PS Pump leak, headlight shorting out, and the fuel leak)).
After that I only have interior work (fix seats, fix loose trim), body and paintwork, fix my AC, and replace 4 broken speakers).
This car is never ready.....frankly, I think it has become the least reliable machine I have ever owned. Any other car would have been tossed long ago with expenses like these. I am starting to lose the warm fuzzies with the Porsche product.
Have you guys driven the new Boxster? How is that machine in anyway an improvement over our 944 Turbos? It seems to me that I can get a lot more machine, in a reliable product, from MANY other manufacturers for a LOT less $$.
I think I have been tolerating a lot of these issues, because it is a PORSCHE....would we keep our cars and put up with this stuff if it was a Civic? Hell no. 2 years ago I bought a 99 Civic Si, I drove that harder than I ever did this Porsche...never had 1 problem. Not 1. That car routinely bounced over 8000 rpm. I got rid of it, b/c I was too tall, and the brakes on the Civic take longer to stop it than a Chevy Suburban.
Granted, whenver I drive my 951.5 I fall in love with the handling, etc. But after 8 years I am now mad. I have a 3 ring binder with hundreds of receipts.
Last weekend I helped install some go fast parts, and more importantly, suspension upgrades to my neighbors 2001 Mustang GT. That car is now a fun ride. The factory handling was a joke, but we installed some coil-overs, and new tires, camber plates (for 1/2 what it cost us porsche owners). He also had the exhaust upgraded. His car is now a blast. And reliable.
Our buddy has a 95 Mustang GT, with some mods, and his car will outperform, and out handle mine. (He also does a lot of DE's and auto-crosses), and his car is totally reliable.
Does anyone else get these feelings of resentment from time to time? I realize most of the things people are going to say about the Civics and the mustangs, but come on, these cars are desinged to be driven in a manner thats fun, usually as a 3rd car. We always take about Porsche engineering, and Ferrari finnicki-ness (?) and what I have experienced is quality that is below that of the average honda civic...
Thoughts, comments, questions?
Fire suit engaged.
I'll step of my <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> now.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
08-12-2002, 09:42 AM
#2
Geaux Tigers!
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Well the Civic is 3 years old and a Honda. It will run forever but it will never have heart.
The Mustang is a mustang, nothing more nothing less. Their everywhere and everyone can own and enjoy them.
As for the Porsche, IMHO if you expect a 16 year old semi-exotic car to get you from A to B in the same manner as a 3 year old Honda you've found your problem. They are semi-expensive to maintain and at this age parts start wearing out, but it's a joy to drive and only the patient and worthy should own one.
Keep in mind I own a Civic as a daily driver and love the reliability and economy of the car but it'll never leave any lust in my heart. Just my 951 cents.
The Mustang is a mustang, nothing more nothing less. Their everywhere and everyone can own and enjoy them.
As for the Porsche, IMHO if you expect a 16 year old semi-exotic car to get you from A to B in the same manner as a 3 year old Honda you've found your problem. They are semi-expensive to maintain and at this age parts start wearing out, but it's a joy to drive and only the patient and worthy should own one.
Keep in mind I own a Civic as a daily driver and love the reliability and economy of the car but it'll never leave any lust in my heart. Just my 951 cents.
08-12-2002, 09:51 AM
#3
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I agree, in regards to your comments on the mustang and civic, but I have to differ on one point. I have the receipts on this car since it was 2 years old, it has never been a reliable machine.
My other main gripe, is that the Boxster does not seem to be an improvement over this car at all. The Boxster is just an image car to me. I have driven a few, and they are fun, but have the soul of the Honda. They ooze design by committee...
I loved my 72 911. It was a pure driving machine. The new Porsche seems to be a car designed to pay the bills for Porsche, and it does that. It is a car that seems to live off of the name brand, not further enhance the name.
I guess I am just frustrated this morning. I have been a Porschefile forever. I am just grumpy cuz I cannot drive my car.....and because Porsche does not seem to offer me a car that will excite me (unless I spend $100k or more). They are now spending their engineering dollars on SUVs and Boxsters. Did you read the Excellence on the new Boxster. Can you imagine if 10 or 20 years ago, Porsche said we improved this car, and mentioned cup holders, or painted intakes. I miss the Porsche that was driven by engineering, not the new Porsche, driven by soccer moms, and image focused trendy types!
Man, am I on rant today!!!
T.
My other main gripe, is that the Boxster does not seem to be an improvement over this car at all. The Boxster is just an image car to me. I have driven a few, and they are fun, but have the soul of the Honda. They ooze design by committee...
I loved my 72 911. It was a pure driving machine. The new Porsche seems to be a car designed to pay the bills for Porsche, and it does that. It is a car that seems to live off of the name brand, not further enhance the name.
I guess I am just frustrated this morning. I have been a Porschefile forever. I am just grumpy cuz I cannot drive my car.....and because Porsche does not seem to offer me a car that will excite me (unless I spend $100k or more). They are now spending their engineering dollars on SUVs and Boxsters. Did you read the Excellence on the new Boxster. Can you imagine if 10 or 20 years ago, Porsche said we improved this car, and mentioned cup holders, or painted intakes. I miss the Porsche that was driven by engineering, not the new Porsche, driven by soccer moms, and image focused trendy types!
Man, am I on rant today!!!
T.
08-12-2002, 10:22 AM
#4
Drifting
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A bit off-topic, but..
I once thought of the Boxster in the same way. Not being a proper Porsche, just riding with the brand image etc... then I got a chance to drive one - it blew my socks off. The way it goes, turns and stops is out of this world. If I had the 97.500€ (the base price for an S here in Finland) to spend on it, I wouldn't think twice.
Just my opinion, of course
I once thought of the Boxster in the same way. Not being a proper Porsche, just riding with the brand image etc... then I got a chance to drive one - it blew my socks off. The way it goes, turns and stops is out of this world. If I had the 97.500€ (the base price for an S here in Finland) to spend on it, I wouldn't think twice.
Just my opinion, of course
08-12-2002, 10:38 AM
#5
Geaux Tigers!
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Personally, I kind of like the Boxster, but I do agree that its seems as if Porsche has gotten off track. I watched the Speedvision show last week and it just left me feeling that Porsche has a lot of unfinished business, like racing, somewhat affordable stripped exotic cars for the public etc. etc.
I don't mind the SUV as long as it enbles Porsche to pickup on the product line in other places.
I don't mind the SUV as long as it enbles Porsche to pickup on the product line in other places.
08-12-2002, 11:03 AM
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Not really knowing anything about the situation it seems when these cars are used as daily drivers and driven hard they break. Granted, mine is my daily driver and has never left me stranded on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck...my brothers jeep however, at least twice a year.
I guess for me, half of what I fix doesn't HAVE to be replaced but should. Or to put it another way, if I was driving a 87 civic, I could care less if the power steering rack leaked, and oil was falling out of my engine like a crazy, or the tachometer stopped working. But in my car, if I see a little leak I fix it, if the visor falls down I fix it...i'm just saying it seems to me that my car so far would have cost me next to nothing had I just driven it and ignored all noises and sights...granted it would look like crap and eventually die, I would have saved thousands of dollars until then. Besides mustangs are ugly, and so are civics.
Good luck to you...and to be honest the only porsche that I see right now that I would buy new is a 911 turbo....and well that sure isn't quite as cheap as it would have to be for me to afford it...take the 117,000, and misplace the comma and add a period and it becomes 11,700.0 NOW that I can afford... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
I guess for me, half of what I fix doesn't HAVE to be replaced but should. Or to put it another way, if I was driving a 87 civic, I could care less if the power steering rack leaked, and oil was falling out of my engine like a crazy, or the tachometer stopped working. But in my car, if I see a little leak I fix it, if the visor falls down I fix it...i'm just saying it seems to me that my car so far would have cost me next to nothing had I just driven it and ignored all noises and sights...granted it would look like crap and eventually die, I would have saved thousands of dollars until then. Besides mustangs are ugly, and so are civics.
Good luck to you...and to be honest the only porsche that I see right now that I would buy new is a 911 turbo....and well that sure isn't quite as cheap as it would have to be for me to afford it...take the 117,000, and misplace the comma and add a period and it becomes 11,700.0 NOW that I can afford... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
08-12-2002, 11:15 AM
#7
Drifting
Boxster, reliable? heh, heheh...
Don't get me wrong, I really like them and would like to have one, but 944 series build quality it is not.
Far from it, in fact, and they aren't standing behind the failures like they used to, either.
Don't get me wrong, I really like them and would like to have one, but 944 series build quality it is not.
Far from it, in fact, and they aren't standing behind the failures like they used to, either.
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08-12-2002, 11:23 AM
#9
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OK, I need to state a couple things for the record.
I am not a Mustang dude. I was just amazed at how we turned an inexpensive ride into a fun machine, and here is the kicker.....at REASONABLE prices. I DO understand the reasons of why....I bet they make more mustangs in one month than all of the 944 turbos ever produced.
I realize the difference between the Civic and the Porsche. I just don't thing any one of us would tolerate the constant repairs and cost if we were spending this kind of money on a different, non-porsche, car. Sometimes I feel, that the reason we do has a lot to do with the fact that car is a porsche. Not a decision based on pure common sense....Once again, I realize there is more, and I am simplifying.
Third, I think Porsche does make decent new cars, just nothing that would get my $. Honestly, why would you pick the Boxster or Boxster S over an M3? The name maybe. The M3 is a car that seems engineered, AND, this is the critical part, BMW believes in the car enough to race it.
My feelings toward Porsche have been fading because of the way the company has changed. They no longer seem to engineer things on a race car and migrate them to a street car. It seems to be that they are simply a sporty car division, heck Audi earns more stripes for racing than Porsche.
My buddy has a Vette, and those cars are earning there stripes, as are the Dodge Vipers. Porsches are racing all over the place, but are any of those factory cars? Maybe they are, but I haven't seen them.
I am just dissolusioned with what Porsche has become. This mixed with my constant requirement for car repairs had me irritated this morning.
I personally love the Porsches, just not new ones. I had a deposit on a Boxster S (when the market was strong, Oh how far away does that seem), and when I finally drove it, I was so disappointed. A 1995 Carrera is 10000x better than a new boxster s. My old, tired, 944 turbo seemed to run rings around the boxster s.
Oh well.
I will never not have a porsche, I am sure however that they will be older, not the new stuff that they are turning out. (Exceptions to all Porsches that are over $100k now (GT2, 911TT, etc).
Sorry to keep ranting. Just mad that I can't drive my car this morning.
T.
I am not a Mustang dude. I was just amazed at how we turned an inexpensive ride into a fun machine, and here is the kicker.....at REASONABLE prices. I DO understand the reasons of why....I bet they make more mustangs in one month than all of the 944 turbos ever produced.
I realize the difference between the Civic and the Porsche. I just don't thing any one of us would tolerate the constant repairs and cost if we were spending this kind of money on a different, non-porsche, car. Sometimes I feel, that the reason we do has a lot to do with the fact that car is a porsche. Not a decision based on pure common sense....Once again, I realize there is more, and I am simplifying.
Third, I think Porsche does make decent new cars, just nothing that would get my $. Honestly, why would you pick the Boxster or Boxster S over an M3? The name maybe. The M3 is a car that seems engineered, AND, this is the critical part, BMW believes in the car enough to race it.
My feelings toward Porsche have been fading because of the way the company has changed. They no longer seem to engineer things on a race car and migrate them to a street car. It seems to be that they are simply a sporty car division, heck Audi earns more stripes for racing than Porsche.
My buddy has a Vette, and those cars are earning there stripes, as are the Dodge Vipers. Porsches are racing all over the place, but are any of those factory cars? Maybe they are, but I haven't seen them.
I am just dissolusioned with what Porsche has become. This mixed with my constant requirement for car repairs had me irritated this morning.
I personally love the Porsches, just not new ones. I had a deposit on a Boxster S (when the market was strong, Oh how far away does that seem), and when I finally drove it, I was so disappointed. A 1995 Carrera is 10000x better than a new boxster s. My old, tired, 944 turbo seemed to run rings around the boxster s.
Oh well.
I will never not have a porsche, I am sure however that they will be older, not the new stuff that they are turning out. (Exceptions to all Porsches that are over $100k now (GT2, 911TT, etc).
Sorry to keep ranting. Just mad that I can't drive my car this morning.
T.
08-12-2002, 11:35 AM
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I think there is some confusion in on the issue of racing.
the Porsche cars are basically out of the box racers, where as the Vipers and vettes are not even close, totally different in everyway than their factory cars.
Porsche being a small independant needs to be very careful how they manage the money and so far they have done well, they would not survive the losses the the way the big three are able to.
cars like the Boxster are the reason they are still here.
Also the Mustang is not a drivers car, it's a badly balanced piece of junk with a big engine and no brakes, upgrade the 951 suspension and run rings around him.
the Porsche cars are basically out of the box racers, where as the Vipers and vettes are not even close, totally different in everyway than their factory cars.
Porsche being a small independant needs to be very careful how they manage the money and so far they have done well, they would not survive the losses the the way the big three are able to.
cars like the Boxster are the reason they are still here.
Also the Mustang is not a drivers car, it's a badly balanced piece of junk with a big engine and no brakes, upgrade the 951 suspension and run rings around him.
08-12-2002, 11:40 AM
#11
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2 1/2 years ago when I was looking for a car, At that point any car that was fast. I was in the market for a Mustang or a Firebird. I stumbled into the Porsche. One of my Coworkers commented that Porsche, was not just a car it was a lifestyle. At the time I laughed and wondered what he meant. It IS a Love and hate thing.. I now know, Lifestyle is a correct term.. I ask myself nearly everyday WHY?. Mine was down for nearly 9 months?????? I would have never done that with ANY OTHER CAR... I love to drive it.. simple as that.. Even when broken, I just can not wait to turn it on.. Now, why is that? I have no Idea. Other then it is sort of like waiting to get on a rollercoaster that you really like. Cause you know what is waiting.. And it is better than the mustang ride. I think pride might be a part of it.. I have one and you don't mentality? I don't really know.. just an addiction.. one that makes you drive harder than you should. and faster also...Lifestyle maybe?
08-12-2002, 12:09 PM
#12
Geaux Tigers!
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"Third, I think Porsche does make decent new cars, just nothing that would get my $. Honestly, why would you pick the Boxster or Boxster S over an M3? The name maybe. The M3 is a car that seems engineered, AND, this is the critical part, BMW believes in the car enough to race it. "
Have you heard how many engines in new M3's that they had to replace? Sure it's a great car. I'd have one in a heartbeat but I wouldn't consider it as dependable as a Honda.
Have you heard how many engines in new M3's that they had to replace? Sure it's a great car. I'd have one in a heartbeat but I wouldn't consider it as dependable as a Honda.
08-12-2002, 12:13 PM
#13
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I agree about the love hate thing. When I was searching for a new toy, that's what mine is, I had a budget but wanted something quick. It takes some serious preventive maintenance to keep 13-17 y/o vehicles on the road; no matter what they are. As much as Porsche relies on rubber goods in all areas of the car, the electronic wiring that is complicated, and the amount of hourly charges that shops charge..some things get neglected by owners, whether on purpose or not.
If I had to do my mods over again,,the only thing that I would do different is to immediately switch it over to stand alone engine management then mod the car from that point on.
Take a slow approach to replacing things that are worn out or could be wearing out. Do you think a 15 y/o fuel pressure regulator diaphram has the same elasticity of a new one? Shocks good for 140,000? Rod bearings are cheap compared to a failure....owning these cars requires a bit of mechanical knowledge or an amount of income that you can put toward it each month,,,just like an "entertainment" budget item.
If I had to do my mods over again,,the only thing that I would do different is to immediately switch it over to stand alone engine management then mod the car from that point on.
Take a slow approach to replacing things that are worn out or could be wearing out. Do you think a 15 y/o fuel pressure regulator diaphram has the same elasticity of a new one? Shocks good for 140,000? Rod bearings are cheap compared to a failure....owning these cars requires a bit of mechanical knowledge or an amount of income that you can put toward it each month,,,just like an "entertainment" budget item.
08-12-2002, 12:26 PM
#14
c'mon man ! Honda & Mustang you mentioned are at lest ten years younger than your Porsche ! Lets see what kind of condition those cars are when they are 10 years older !
When you P-car was one-two years old it didn't need any suspension upgrades like the cars you mentioned.
Olli
'88 951
When you P-car was one-two years old it didn't need any suspension upgrades like the cars you mentioned.
Olli
'88 951
08-12-2002, 12:35 PM
#15
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Ok, so many thoughts....must sort out....need help....
I do realize that the Beemers have M3 motor issues. I am quite clear on the mods necessary to make a viper, vette, or mustang a good car, or even a race car. I truly love Porsche cars, just not crazy about anything they make thats affordable (relative term I know).
As far as porsches being race cars out of the box....well....gotta disagree. Get into a boxster. Note the cheap plastic, the modifications that would be necessary to mount a roll cage,.....I guess I have lost my fire, not really in the mood to type out the boxster flaws...
K27w, I am not sure if you were asking me about my car needing the repairs, or someone else. If you are, I can tell you that I have owned the car since early 95, bought if from my room mate who owned it since 90. We have receipts since 88. The receipts tell a tale of constant MAJOR repair. This car may be an exception, but I have replaced EVERY typical item. (PS pump, PS rack, motor mounts, water pumps, leaks everywhere (I ended up just getting a 952 motor, so I wouldn't have to repair a the most leaky motor I ever dealt with)...
BTW All of this must be kept from my wife, who is sick of the car, and if she knew I was talking bad about it, after all the money we spent on it, well......lets not go there!! <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
Anyway, I love the way the car drives and brakes, just not the way the car breaks ( and breaks my wallet!).
The truth is that these cars were great in their time, and darn good now (esp when compared to what replaced them!), but there are cars like Altimas that come with 240hp running around. 20 years have brought around a lot of change.
What I do love is the unbelievable range of customization available for what is truly a low production machine. I also love the look (how many pics of the 944 can one person have saved on their PC!!)....
The cars are great, I just feel like that we put up with a lot because they are Porsches....
Just my continuing monday morning rant...not worth 951 cents!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
I do realize that the Beemers have M3 motor issues. I am quite clear on the mods necessary to make a viper, vette, or mustang a good car, or even a race car. I truly love Porsche cars, just not crazy about anything they make thats affordable (relative term I know).
As far as porsches being race cars out of the box....well....gotta disagree. Get into a boxster. Note the cheap plastic, the modifications that would be necessary to mount a roll cage,.....I guess I have lost my fire, not really in the mood to type out the boxster flaws...
K27w, I am not sure if you were asking me about my car needing the repairs, or someone else. If you are, I can tell you that I have owned the car since early 95, bought if from my room mate who owned it since 90. We have receipts since 88. The receipts tell a tale of constant MAJOR repair. This car may be an exception, but I have replaced EVERY typical item. (PS pump, PS rack, motor mounts, water pumps, leaks everywhere (I ended up just getting a 952 motor, so I wouldn't have to repair a the most leaky motor I ever dealt with)...
BTW All of this must be kept from my wife, who is sick of the car, and if she knew I was talking bad about it, after all the money we spent on it, well......lets not go there!! <img src="graemlins/nono.gif" border="0" alt="[nono]" />
Anyway, I love the way the car drives and brakes, just not the way the car breaks ( and breaks my wallet!).
The truth is that these cars were great in their time, and darn good now (esp when compared to what replaced them!), but there are cars like Altimas that come with 240hp running around. 20 years have brought around a lot of change.
What I do love is the unbelievable range of customization available for what is truly a low production machine. I also love the look (how many pics of the 944 can one person have saved on their PC!!)....
The cars are great, I just feel like that we put up with a lot because they are Porsches....
Just my continuing monday morning rant...not worth 951 cents!
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />