Swapped 86 Spindles for 88-- what about the tie rods?
11-28-2009, 10:06 PM
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Swapped 86 Spindles for 88-- what about the tie rods?
I was advised that the spindles on my 1986 944 Turbo (with power steering) are a weak point, and should be replaced with spindles from a 1987 or later Turbo/S2.
I did that (along with the hubs and rotors), and lost all my negative camber.
Since I was planning on replacing the control arms anyway, I replaced the arms with Racer's Edge long arms today. Well, I've got my neg camber back. Along with some serious toe in.
I don't have enough adjustment on the tie rod ends to get the toe back to anything approaching straight. The tie rods are about an inch too short.
Anyone have any advice? Will the tie rods/tie rod ends from a later vehicle work?
Thanks in advance!
I did that (along with the hubs and rotors), and lost all my negative camber.
Since I was planning on replacing the control arms anyway, I replaced the arms with Racer's Edge long arms today. Well, I've got my neg camber back. Along with some serious toe in.
I don't have enough adjustment on the tie rod ends to get the toe back to anything approaching straight. The tie rods are about an inch too short.
Anyone have any advice? Will the tie rods/tie rod ends from a later vehicle work?
Thanks in advance!
11-29-2009, 11:47 AM
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Update:
Karl responded to my email last night and will be exchanging my long control arm for a short one. (He is a stand-up guy!)
That will solve my tie rod problem.
However, now I'm back to my camber problem. As I've thought through the geometry, it seems to me that the later spindles must have their strut mounting bolts aligned to provide about 5 degrees more positive camber than the early spindles, to account for the longer control arm (I'm figuring the strut defines a circle of about 20" radius, and the long arms are about 1" longer than the short arms).
How can I get this 5 degrees back? (and more really, this is a DE/Track car). I'm thinking that I will need to get camber plates. But, will that get me 5 degrees?
Thoughts?
Karl responded to my email last night and will be exchanging my long control arm for a short one. (He is a stand-up guy!)
That will solve my tie rod problem.
However, now I'm back to my camber problem. As I've thought through the geometry, it seems to me that the later spindles must have their strut mounting bolts aligned to provide about 5 degrees more positive camber than the early spindles, to account for the longer control arm (I'm figuring the strut defines a circle of about 20" radius, and the long arms are about 1" longer than the short arms).
How can I get this 5 degrees back? (and more really, this is a DE/Track car). I'm thinking that I will need to get camber plates. But, will that get me 5 degrees?
Thoughts?
Last edited by teamking; 11-29-2009 at 12:34 PM. Reason: Deleted a bad idea
11-29-2009, 01:27 PM
#5
struts
So you still have the late struts I take it?
There are 2 versions of this adapter bracket I designed for the Early strut modification to get Late spindles on....
I haven't calculated the lower mount hole dimension yet for doing what you are about to, but would be easy....
I mounted Late Spindles on Early struts with the Late Control Arm Offset.
Looks like you are trying to mount LATE spindles on LATE struts and keep EARLY control arms?
You can modify the LOWER strut to spindle mount hole dim by moving it out 5 degrees, but this bracket is for the EARLY struts. The sidewall dims can also be recalculated for doing the Mod to the LATE struts.....
http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/sus...truts-t296.htm
There are 2 versions of this adapter bracket I designed for the Early strut modification to get Late spindles on....
I haven't calculated the lower mount hole dimension yet for doing what you are about to, but would be easy....
I mounted Late Spindles on Early struts with the Late Control Arm Offset.
Looks like you are trying to mount LATE spindles on LATE struts and keep EARLY control arms?
You can modify the LOWER strut to spindle mount hole dim by moving it out 5 degrees, but this bracket is for the EARLY struts. The sidewall dims can also be recalculated for doing the Mod to the LATE struts.....
http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/sus...truts-t296.htm
11-29-2009, 02:29 PM
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So you still have the late struts I take it?
There are 2 versions of this adapter bracket I designed for the Early strut modification to get Late spindles on....
I haven't calculated the lower mount hole dimension yet for doing what you are about to, but would be easy....
I mounted Late Spindles on Early struts with the Late Control Arm Offset.
Looks like you are trying to mount LATE spindles on LATE struts and keep EARLY control arms?
You can modify the LOWER strut to spindle mount hole dim by moving it out 5 degrees, but this bracket is for the EARLY struts. The sidewall dims can also be recalculated for doing the Mod to the LATE struts.....
http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/sus...truts-t296.htm
There are 2 versions of this adapter bracket I designed for the Early strut modification to get Late spindles on....
I haven't calculated the lower mount hole dimension yet for doing what you are about to, but would be easy....
I mounted Late Spindles on Early struts with the Late Control Arm Offset.
Looks like you are trying to mount LATE spindles on LATE struts and keep EARLY control arms?
You can modify the LOWER strut to spindle mount hole dim by moving it out 5 degrees, but this bracket is for the EARLY struts. The sidewall dims can also be recalculated for doing the Mod to the LATE struts.....
http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/sus...truts-t296.htm
https://rennlist.com/forums/924-931-...35k-miles.html
I will double check the part #.
That is fantastic information in your other post!
11-29-2009, 02:56 PM
#7
86 turbo struts
Yeah, the 86 T is the Red-headed stepchild of all the 944 series.
The strut and spindle attachment points are the same as the 87-up cars, Turbo or NA, but I never have liked the Crimp-style struts that Porsche went to. The Early struts rebuild by unscrewing the cap and sticking in a new sealed insert. The only problem was the spindle mount holes are wider by 5mm on the Late spindles.
The strut and spindle attachment points are the same as the 87-up cars, Turbo or NA, but I never have liked the Crimp-style struts that Porsche went to. The Early struts rebuild by unscrewing the cap and sticking in a new sealed insert. The only problem was the spindle mount holes are wider by 5mm on the Late spindles.
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11-29-2009, 03:07 PM
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OK, the struts are Sachs 951.343.031.01/032.01. Pelican says those are superseded by 951.343.031.05, which fit 1989 944 and all 944 Turbo.
The struts fit my "early" spindles which are 18mm wide and have mounting holes on 63mm centers. My "late" spindles are also 18mm wide and have mounting holes on 63mm centers.
XSChop: I think that our definitions of early and late are a little different, because the 1986 Turbo seems to be a half step between the early NA cars and the later NA cars. As best I can surmise: it came with early length control arms, later type struts, and spindles that have later mounting but early angle between the strut and spindle. Now, I've replaced the spindle, and everything "fits" except that the angle between the strut and spindle is wrong. There doesn't seem to be enough metal to bore a new lower mounting hole in the spindle. But, perhaps I could put a new hole in the strut by cutting/welding.
Another thought: with all this confusion regarding early vs late, do I need to revisit my need for replacing my spindles in the first place? Where is the failure in the "early" spindles? Does my half-step 1986 951 cure that weakness?
The struts fit my "early" spindles which are 18mm wide and have mounting holes on 63mm centers. My "late" spindles are also 18mm wide and have mounting holes on 63mm centers.
XSChop: I think that our definitions of early and late are a little different, because the 1986 Turbo seems to be a half step between the early NA cars and the later NA cars. As best I can surmise: it came with early length control arms, later type struts, and spindles that have later mounting but early angle between the strut and spindle. Now, I've replaced the spindle, and everything "fits" except that the angle between the strut and spindle is wrong. There doesn't seem to be enough metal to bore a new lower mounting hole in the spindle. But, perhaps I could put a new hole in the strut by cutting/welding.
Another thought: with all this confusion regarding early vs late, do I need to revisit my need for replacing my spindles in the first place? Where is the failure in the "early" spindles? Does my half-step 1986 951 cure that weakness?
11-29-2009, 03:29 PM
#9
86T spindle difference
You nailed the description of the 86T spindle. But there is another difference....The 86T spindle shaft is the same as the Early cars (smaller bearing I.D.s than the LATE spindles) and swapping to the later spindles gets you the larger spindle/hub bearings. Also the 86T Hubs are weakest of them all because the alloy webbing is smaller than the EARLY hubs even. Porsche did this to get the bigger Calipers in there but compromised the Hub strength.
I have only seen pics of a snapped EARLY spindle that had the speedo cable run through it, never heard of one breaking from an EARLY car with solid shaft spindle/s.
Take a look...
I have only seen pics of a snapped EARLY spindle that had the speedo cable run through it, never heard of one breaking from an EARLY car with solid shaft spindle/s.
Take a look...
11-29-2009, 10:35 PM
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You nailed the description of the 86T spindle. But there is another difference....The 86T spindle shaft is the same as the Early cars (smaller bearing I.D.s than the LATE spindles) and swapping to the later spindles gets you the larger spindle/hub bearings. Also the 86T Hubs are weakest of them all because the alloy webbing is smaller than the EARLY hubs even. Porsche did this to get the bigger Calipers in there but compromised the Hub strength.
I have only seen pics of a snapped EARLY spindle that had the speedo cable run through it, never heard of one breaking from an EARLY car with solid shaft spindle/s.
I have only seen pics of a snapped EARLY spindle that had the speedo cable run through it, never heard of one breaking from an EARLY car with solid shaft spindle/s.
***
Seems like my best long term option would be to stay with long control arms, convert my tie rods to "late" length, and switch my rims from early offset to late.
Unfortunately, I'm not going to get that all done before I head to VIR on Friday. (I'm out of town on business Tuesday and Wednesday).
So, I'm going to end up switching my control arms to short length, installing a camber plate to get most of my camber back, and then spending the rest of this cars life either fighting for camber or custom fabricating the strut spindle mounts.
