Steve in New Hampshire

One of my goals is to bring my NA up to about 200 hp over the next year, so I've started with the 'infrastructure' upgrades to handle the increased pep. I've done the Koni Yellows all around already. Now I'm considering brake upgrades. I've seen many go to 951 brakes...if I go that direction does that mean I'll have to also upgrade to 16" or 17" wheels for rotor clearance? Would be a shame...my newly refinished 15" phonedials look sooo good! Are there other brake upgrades available for an '87 NA?

tifosiman

Steve,

I just finished my upgrade. See my P-car link below.

Even if you just go with 951 brakes, you will more than likely need to go to 16" rims to clear the calipers.

Tifo

ram_one

I've done a lot of research because I will be doing the same mod and everything comes up with minimum of 16" wheels.
Big Reds need 17" wheels if I remember correctly.

tifosiman

Correct, and even 928S4 calipers (with the same piston size as big reds) are pushing the 16" envelope. On the early offset cars, only the real 951 16" Fuchs work with them, and that's only with addition of a small 1/4 inch wheel spacer. Other 16" rims, and non-951 fuchs, won't work...

Tifo

BRB_85.5_NA

Also remember slotted rotors, like on Tifo's car, and stainless steel brake lines running some high quality brake fluid like ATE Super Blue. Minor, cheap stuff but part of a solid brake upgrade package.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> B

marksportcts

NOT TRUE!!!

I have upgraded my '86 n/a with the 951 brakes and suspension.





I had a set of 911 Fuchs because I was told and assumed that the 15" phone dials didn't fit. WRONG!! The fuch spokes contacted the face of the calipers. I actually needed the 951 Fuchs. I ended up putting my original 15" phonedials back on and been running with them for 2 years. If you check the back of the wheels, it will have a 951 part number.




Of course, the 15" will not fit the S4 or bigger setups.

Toolmaster

Steve -

Not trying to lower the priority here for a brake upgrade, but something to consider....

You can change (dramatically at that too) the power and performance of your brakes by changing the brake pads and the proportiooning valve.

If you're looking at about 200ish HP (and I assume you mean crank, not rear tire HP) then you're really not all that far up from 147hp stock.

Larger brakes have their place, but what are you intending to do with the car? Race it? Drive it on the streets?

I could be convinced to part with my 86 calipers btw... Gimmee a call.

Jay

tifosiman

Correct, the 15" phonedials will fit the stock 951 brake set up. I just did a search, and the 1985 951 in ROW format had 15" phonedials stock.

Tifo

Bob S. 1984 Silver

I would consider the original brake design quite adequate for 200 Hp. The primary reason for larger brakes is to increase the swept area and therefore improve heat dissipation. Unless the car is to be heavily tracked, this should not be a problem in regular street driving. A point often overlooked with larger brakes is, unless the car is equipped with ABS, larger brakes with their increased "grabbing" power make it easier to lock up. And, a skidding tire has much less traction than a rolling one.

Just my 2 pfennigs worth...

Ahmet

I will second (third?) that the stock NA set-up can be dramatically improved upon with just pads, fluid and braided ss lines. I did a few track events with my 84 NA a couple of years ago and was very agressive with the brakes but did not experience any fade. I was running and wouldn't hesitate to recommend pagid orange pads and ate superblue fluid with ss lines from paragon (they have an active rennlister, skip).

I also have first hand experiance that 86 944 turbo brakes will clear cookie cutters, phone dials (any offset), and fuchs. I hear the 87 and later models require 16 inch wheels but I don't know that to be true except for the 88S and later cars.
Ahmet

Steve in New Hampshire

Many thanks to all! Perhaps some simpler upgrades will get me there afterall! The car will be primarily street driven, though I may be arm-twisted into an autox by the Chelmsford gang!

The braided hoses are already on the winter list of things to do...as any 15 year old rubber is suspect!

If only those NA calipers were as 'purty' as the 951's!!

It'll come down to comparing the conversion costs vs the upgrade costs...

Thanks!

Steve

marksportcts

[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>

Of course, the 15" will not fit the S4 or bigger setups.</strong><hr></blockquote>


I meant to say that I don't think that the S4 or bigger brake systems will fit.

And check the classifieds as there is some guy selling the complete conversion for $600.

Danno

" the 15" phonedials will fit the stock 951 brake set up. I just did a search, and the 1985 951 in ROW format had 15" phonedials stock."

Also think about what sized spare-tire came with the 951 cars. Interesting tidbit was that the early, early-'85 951 (or maybe the test-mule) had 944NA single-piston calipers as well... and the early square dash.

ClassJ

What is required to swap to the 951 brakes on a 85.5 NA.

Now that I know that I can keep my 15" phone dials the swap sounds more attractive.

Another question is that ever since the car was new I have worn front pads much quicker than backs. I am the original owner and have used up 2 sets up front and the backs are still like new after 30000 miles. Would the brake force booster from the 951 improve braking. Can this be done without changing anything else.

tifosiman

To switch to 951 brakes, you need the following(all from an 86 951)
:

The calipers
The rotors
Front 951 spindles and hubs.
front 951 struts (or modify your current n/a struts like I did, email me for detailed instructions).
4 2mm washers for the rear calipers

This is basically a straight bolt-on. The 85.5on NA dust sheilds even work if you want to keep them. I would also add the stock 951 bias valve and get some braided lines while you have everything apart.

Let me know if I can answer anmore Q's for ya. Danno was a big help to me, as he is the Brake Upgrade God.

Tifo

PS. not sure if a bias valve would change anything with stock NA brakes, you could give it a try though...