Cool 944 LS1 build video
11-02-2009, 12:18 PM
#17
Rainman
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Do any of these guys know the meaning of "low key"? I love swaps and I am in the middle of one but all the Nos, terminate this, BS stickers are tacky and scream 19 year old boy racer. Then of course there's the live highway shot where they roll off a more expensive car 
.
.
+1
11-02-2009, 01:43 PM
#18
Go with a LS3 for half the cost of the LS7 and more than enough power.
There is a point of diminishing returns where you have to get the power to the ground. 1,000 HP would sound cool but what would the point be if you couldn't get the power down?
There is a point of diminishing returns where you have to get the power to the ground. 1,000 HP would sound cool but what would the point be if you couldn't get the power down?
11-02-2009, 04:17 PM
#19
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the thing about the LS1, LS2, LS3 thing, is that
1. the LS1 is everywhere... easiest to find and good for 300-450 hp
2. the LS2 and LS3 are both improved over the LS1, [GM calls them Gen-IV], all-aluminum, that can be made to work well in the transaxle porsche cars up to about 500-530 hp... Going to even more stout LSx examples is likely, just overkill. The LS2 is a beast.
3. the LS2 is also the next easiest to find because its in the Pontiac cars too, and many Corvette owners sell them because they want to upgrade to even nastier, 600-800 + hp LSx engines. Your gain. If you don't want to go all the way to a crate motor, or Lingenfelter type of deal, heres an example: an LS2 w/ 13k miles was pulled from a bent Grand Prix recently, and sold on ebay for $2,950 !!
4. the LS3 is also a great choice, but they're harder to find, you will almost always be buying a new one, and its almost too much motor in my opinion.
5. not only can examples of low-mileage LS2s be found for less than 3,500 dollars -- but, with just the addition of a Fast Intake and mild cam and a few other add-ons at the cylindar head, [which can all be done w/out removing the heads], and you have nearly reached the usefull limits of the transaxle Porsche before you risk shattering the driveline components.
500 hp is plenty for me. That's like 430-440 hp at the wheels.
/.
1. the LS1 is everywhere... easiest to find and good for 300-450 hp
2. the LS2 and LS3 are both improved over the LS1, [GM calls them Gen-IV], all-aluminum, that can be made to work well in the transaxle porsche cars up to about 500-530 hp... Going to even more stout LSx examples is likely, just overkill. The LS2 is a beast.
3. the LS2 is also the next easiest to find because its in the Pontiac cars too, and many Corvette owners sell them because they want to upgrade to even nastier, 600-800 + hp LSx engines. Your gain. If you don't want to go all the way to a crate motor, or Lingenfelter type of deal, heres an example: an LS2 w/ 13k miles was pulled from a bent Grand Prix recently, and sold on ebay for $2,950 !!
4. the LS3 is also a great choice, but they're harder to find, you will almost always be buying a new one, and its almost too much motor in my opinion.
5. not only can examples of low-mileage LS2s be found for less than 3,500 dollars -- but, with just the addition of a Fast Intake and mild cam and a few other add-ons at the cylindar head, [which can all be done w/out removing the heads], and you have nearly reached the usefull limits of the transaxle Porsche before you risk shattering the driveline components.
500 hp is plenty for me. That's like 430-440 hp at the wheels.
/.
11-02-2009, 05:12 PM
#20
Race Director
the thing about the LS1, LS2, LS3 thing, is that
1. the LS1 is everywhere... easiest to find and good for 300-450 hp
2. the LS2 and LS3 are both improved over the LS1, [GM calls them Gen-IV], all-aluminum, that can be made to work well in the transaxle porsche cars up to about 500-530 hp... Going to even more stout LSx examples is likely, just overkill. The LS2 is a beast.
3. the LS2 is also the next easiest to find because its in the Pontiac cars too, and many Corvette owners sell them because they want to upgrade to even nastier, 600-800 + hp LSx engines. Your gain. If you don't want to go all the way to a crate motor, or Lingenfelter type of deal, heres an example: an LS2 w/ 13k miles was pulled from a bent Grand Prix recently, and sold on ebay for $2,950 !!
4. the LS3 is also a great choice, but they're harder to find, you will almost always be buying a new one, and its almost too much motor in my opinion.
5. not only can examples of low-mileage LS2s be found for less than 3,500 dollars -- but, with just the addition of a Fast Intake and mild cam and a few other add-ons at the cylindar head, [which can all be done w/out removing the heads], and you have nearly reached the usefull limits of the transaxle Porsche before you risk shattering the driveline components.
500 hp is plenty for me. That's like 430-440 hp at the wheels.
/.
1. the LS1 is everywhere... easiest to find and good for 300-450 hp
2. the LS2 and LS3 are both improved over the LS1, [GM calls them Gen-IV], all-aluminum, that can be made to work well in the transaxle porsche cars up to about 500-530 hp... Going to even more stout LSx examples is likely, just overkill. The LS2 is a beast.
3. the LS2 is also the next easiest to find because its in the Pontiac cars too, and many Corvette owners sell them because they want to upgrade to even nastier, 600-800 + hp LSx engines. Your gain. If you don't want to go all the way to a crate motor, or Lingenfelter type of deal, heres an example: an LS2 w/ 13k miles was pulled from a bent Grand Prix recently, and sold on ebay for $2,950 !!
4. the LS3 is also a great choice, but they're harder to find, you will almost always be buying a new one, and its almost too much motor in my opinion.
5. not only can examples of low-mileage LS2s be found for less than 3,500 dollars -- but, with just the addition of a Fast Intake and mild cam and a few other add-ons at the cylindar head, [which can all be done w/out removing the heads], and you have nearly reached the usefull limits of the transaxle Porsche before you risk shattering the driveline components.
500 hp is plenty for me. That's like 430-440 hp at the wheels.
/.
The point is you can install a small block in damn near anything but is it driveable and sustainable?
11-02-2009, 05:29 PM
#21
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Not that I'm in the market, but hypothetically, if you're looking for a good value LS1-LS2, where do you look? Ebay? Seems kind of hit-or-miss.
That said, for track use, upgrading a n/a means getting a Turbo transaxle, and at a minimum Turbo brakes. It probably ends up being a $12,000 conversion if you can DIY. I guess that's not crazy money considering what you end up with.
That said, for track use, upgrading a n/a means getting a Turbo transaxle, and at a minimum Turbo brakes. It probably ends up being a $12,000 conversion if you can DIY. I guess that's not crazy money considering what you end up with.
11-02-2009, 08:14 PM
#22
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porrsha... Brilliant,
but as DVC stated recently: "there is not one issue that has not been solved."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pADH...eature=related
I just saw a 1970 sting ray vette on the Mechum auto auction... the car was a bit odd: near perfect with 65,000 miles, but the original 396 engine, though dressed nicely, had not been rebuilt.
They were leaving that for the next owner to do since the rest of the car was perfect... What a beast. You could just go cruising on any saturday night and no worries. It made me realize there is still quite a bit of utility in these old muscle cars, despite that the original motors weren't built well in those days --
but a trip to the Machine shop and a kit from Summit Racing or Jeggs would have that car running nice for another 150,000 miles.
[I am running stuff from Summit on my 968 exhaust already - lol]
Porsche got the internal components right the first time around --
but there is no simplicity whatsoever involved with "staying Porsche," and enjoy our transaxles as daily drivers - unless having an annual service budget of [just write a number X $1,000] is ok with you.
If you have the money to drive a 911 or GT3, then I see where having 944/968 around would be a blast.
I really appreciate and love my car.
But the components that routinely fail on the 968 are:
1. cam timing component, and belt failures before 50,000 miles IS a design flaw for a less-than-50,000 dollar car. [from an economical point of view, a used 944/968 is not much deserving of such a supercar-level of fuss despite it being one of the best handling cars ever].
2. ps pumps and lines.
3. radiators
4. fan thermostats
5. oil coolers
6. air conditioning failures
7. motor mounts -- the rough and tumble world of the 4 cylinder engine...
all failed in my car's previous owner except # 1 and # 4.
and, they had been building the transaxle 4 for nearly 20 years already.
and pinion bearings...
You're forced to babysit that timing belt so much, that you could have taken 5 trips around the world by the time you finish driving this Porsche engine 200 thousand miles. Don't know about you guys, but for me that's like in just about 6 or 7 years.
It's really hard to justify a rebuild or "Porsche 4" swap... it's just mardi gras all over again. We are not talking Honda Civic parts here.
I love this engine for all that it can do, but my love affair with the transaxle 4 will give way to my new love affair with the transaxle hybrid, my days spent fussing over medium-level power is over. For me, the only way to save the Porsche transaxle and enjoy it as as a daily driving car is to go Chevrolet...
Allan -- Massachusetts
but as DVC stated recently: "there is not one issue that has not been solved."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pADH...eature=related
I just saw a 1970 sting ray vette on the Mechum auto auction... the car was a bit odd: near perfect with 65,000 miles, but the original 396 engine, though dressed nicely, had not been rebuilt.
They were leaving that for the next owner to do since the rest of the car was perfect... What a beast. You could just go cruising on any saturday night and no worries. It made me realize there is still quite a bit of utility in these old muscle cars, despite that the original motors weren't built well in those days --
but a trip to the Machine shop and a kit from Summit Racing or Jeggs would have that car running nice for another 150,000 miles.
[I am running stuff from Summit on my 968 exhaust already - lol]
Porsche got the internal components right the first time around --
but there is no simplicity whatsoever involved with "staying Porsche," and enjoy our transaxles as daily drivers - unless having an annual service budget of [just write a number X $1,000] is ok with you.
If you have the money to drive a 911 or GT3, then I see where having 944/968 around would be a blast.
I really appreciate and love my car.
But the components that routinely fail on the 968 are:
1. cam timing component, and belt failures before 50,000 miles IS a design flaw for a less-than-50,000 dollar car. [from an economical point of view, a used 944/968 is not much deserving of such a supercar-level of fuss despite it being one of the best handling cars ever].
2. ps pumps and lines.
3. radiators
4. fan thermostats
5. oil coolers
6. air conditioning failures
7. motor mounts -- the rough and tumble world of the 4 cylinder engine...
all failed in my car's previous owner except # 1 and # 4.
and, they had been building the transaxle 4 for nearly 20 years already.
and pinion bearings...
You're forced to babysit that timing belt so much, that you could have taken 5 trips around the world by the time you finish driving this Porsche engine 200 thousand miles. Don't know about you guys, but for me that's like in just about 6 or 7 years.
It's really hard to justify a rebuild or "Porsche 4" swap... it's just mardi gras all over again. We are not talking Honda Civic parts here.
I love this engine for all that it can do, but my love affair with the transaxle 4 will give way to my new love affair with the transaxle hybrid, my days spent fussing over medium-level power is over. For me, the only way to save the Porsche transaxle and enjoy it as as a daily driving car is to go Chevrolet...
Allan -- Massachusetts
Last edited by odurandina; 11-03-2009 at 11:28 AM.
11-02-2009, 08:40 PM
#23
I have done several motor swaps in my time. Putting stuff where it does not belong.
I am having a hard time figuring out where all these dollar figures are coming from.
Can someone post a detailed price list for one of these conversions?
Even at $3k for a motor I am missing where the other $12K is going?
I am having a hard time figuring out where all these dollar figures are coming from.
Can someone post a detailed price list for one of these conversions?
Even at $3k for a motor I am missing where the other $12K is going?
11-02-2009, 09:08 PM
#24
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Done right -- 6.5k - 7.5 k for parts that are going under the hood, 40 - 50 hours labor, [can be another 6-7 k] there. LS2 engines are about 4-8 k without going nuts and taking the heads off for porting, etc, then a trip to the muffler shop, and engine tuning, 1 k. = 18 - 22 thousand dollars. But it will run like a new vette for a very, very long time with very few surprises... if your'e driving a 968 you could benefit from swapping taller 5th and 6th gears.
If you talk to Tony Garcia, he would be happy to do the work and he will give you exact quotes on parts. He takes things a few steps further than the Renegade guys but he's using their parts and then adding on.
He talks endlessly about brakes. Most of us have killer brakes and well-kept suspensions already, so...
http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pADH...eature=related
you can also read the "190 mph in a 944" thread
something else amazing: GM spent more than 1.5 billion dollars developing the first LS1 engines and they were just getting started... the lsx Gen III and IV engines weigh about 25 pounds more than the n/a porsche engines... research it: they come in about 20 pounds lighter than the porsche turbo engines. Jeremy Clark might say:
Four cylinder engines are the most heavy engines per unit of displacement yield - IN THE WORLD.
./
If you talk to Tony Garcia, he would be happy to do the work and he will give you exact quotes on parts. He takes things a few steps further than the Renegade guys but he's using their parts and then adding on.
He talks endlessly about brakes. Most of us have killer brakes and well-kept suspensions already, so...
http://www.tonygarcia.org/944V8/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pADH...eature=related
you can also read the "190 mph in a 944" thread
something else amazing: GM spent more than 1.5 billion dollars developing the first LS1 engines and they were just getting started... the lsx Gen III and IV engines weigh about 25 pounds more than the n/a porsche engines... research it: they come in about 20 pounds lighter than the porsche turbo engines. Jeremy Clark might say:
Four cylinder engines are the most heavy engines per unit of displacement yield - IN THE WORLD.
./
Last edited by odurandina; 11-02-2009 at 10:42 PM. Reason: add Tony's 944 page
11-02-2009, 09:37 PM
#25
What is this $7.5k in "parts"?
I see a custom bell housing, motor mounts, oil pan and an upgraded radiator. That's no where close to $8k. Maybe $2 or less.
What else?
I'm just no seeing $20k+
I see a custom bell housing, motor mounts, oil pan and an upgraded radiator. That's no where close to $8k. Maybe $2 or less.
What else?
I'm just no seeing $20k+
11-02-2009, 09:43 PM
#26
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there's other stuff... the stuff renegade will sell you is all necessary parts that can not be left out, and that's over 4 grand. Then Tony solves some other issues that are problematic... then, everything has to be plumbed... there's a lot of stuff going on, once you get out your calculater you are well over 6 k dollars. Tony's not going to sugarcoat it like the guys at Renegade often do... in my particular case we were talking 968s, and that includes adding a 944 torque tube.
I will get the exact numbers up - soon.
I will get the exact numbers up - soon.
11-02-2009, 11:05 PM
#28
944 swap manual
I just got my swap manual after doing the swap already. This would have been invaluable from the start. I am figuring right at $3500 for the entire swap since I am using a truck 5.3L engine and doing all the work myself and a buttload of custom fabbing to boot because I will build another one later.
11-02-2009, 11:45 PM
#29
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xschop -- if you find somebody in a trick, white 968 camped out on your lawn... i think we need to talk. where do you live again ?
11-03-2009, 12:55 AM
#30
okc
OKC here. I will do a 928 next. As soon as a decent header supplier comes thru on the 944-V8. I will offer a full blown kit for the 944. Hell, I may have to do them myself as well, we'll see