my love affair is no more
10-29-2009, 07:46 PM
#17
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If they've been done even remotely recently then you're simply out of luck; you'll have to find something else to spend you're hard-earned on!
10-31-2009, 12:58 AM
#18
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actually i don't know the history on the belt, however i'm unable to get to a computer during the week while i'm at school, thus the wait.
i bought the car in 07, it had sat for 2yrs, i never did the belt...oops. though the head gasket and oil pan gasket were something i've been more recently worried about.
ends up, it was only 1400 for the head job...new head, gaskets, front main seal(mine was shot), belts, and a couple other things. so no rebuild.
i had thought about a dohc 16v head, but wasn't sure if it would fit the 2.5l, i realize they made 2.5 dohc, but they're rare and parts are up there. they make enough parts for the 8v to warrant keeping that head.
i would've gone with boring the motor .40 over, then sleeving it back to .20 over, getting euro piston's, raising compression from 9.5:1 up to 10.6:1. port and polish the intake, head, and polish the exhaust. with a 2.5" exhaust all the way out, power woulda been somewhere around 210 +/- 5hp. i then woulda upgraded the clutch to an s2 or 951(just for the extra meat), and possibly a 968 6spd or 951 5spd lsd. but it ended up being only 1400 so eh, i'll just wait a lil longer to do it.
i have thought of selling it when i get it back, 4500, recent maint: above mentioned, wheel bearings, shocks, control arm/ball joints, pads/rotors all 4. it has broken odo(150-175k est), 924 carrera gt headlights, ripped drivers seat(power sports buckets, the high end ones) and roof liner is MIA, possibly rear seat delete in the coming weeks. black on black, 5spd
i bought the car in 07, it had sat for 2yrs, i never did the belt...oops. though the head gasket and oil pan gasket were something i've been more recently worried about.
ends up, it was only 1400 for the head job...new head, gaskets, front main seal(mine was shot), belts, and a couple other things. so no rebuild.
i had thought about a dohc 16v head, but wasn't sure if it would fit the 2.5l, i realize they made 2.5 dohc, but they're rare and parts are up there. they make enough parts for the 8v to warrant keeping that head.
i would've gone with boring the motor .40 over, then sleeving it back to .20 over, getting euro piston's, raising compression from 9.5:1 up to 10.6:1. port and polish the intake, head, and polish the exhaust. with a 2.5" exhaust all the way out, power woulda been somewhere around 210 +/- 5hp. i then woulda upgraded the clutch to an s2 or 951(just for the extra meat), and possibly a 968 6spd or 951 5spd lsd. but it ended up being only 1400 so eh, i'll just wait a lil longer to do it.
i have thought of selling it when i get it back, 4500, recent maint: above mentioned, wheel bearings, shocks, control arm/ball joints, pads/rotors all 4. it has broken odo(150-175k est), 924 carrera gt headlights, ripped drivers seat(power sports buckets, the high end ones) and roof liner is MIA, possibly rear seat delete in the coming weeks. black on black, 5spd
10-31-2009, 04:31 AM
#19
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There's always a silver lining... did you read my [190 mph in a 944] thread ?
You love your car... I've been there.
there was a guy on another thread asking a very similar question -- so i just copied and pasted my answer and all you 944 guys are gonna hate me for saying it.
It breaks my heart to hear your story, because the only way you can justify the costs vs value vs longevity vs future costs is to go BIG.
big Powerhaus, and turbos or Ls1, Ls2 time.
as far as your current plan of finding motors and messing around with all the low-budget ****...
I am sorry but it is again the same answer:
No. Your car is now a donor vehicle -- to yourself.
the 944 is my favorite car of all time...I had an '87 944s in Guards Red... visiting my women in Odessa on a quick haul from Austin TX... I Blew a main seal going 135 on I-10 between Kerville and Junction, Halloween, 1994... the saddest day of my life.
Take a look at what decent running 944s are selling for these days... with poorly-engineered, under-sized engines that require half an arm and your leg to maintain every couple of years... really fun when changing the timing and ballance shaft belts and H20 pumps only cost about half of what the cars are now worth, and even then you are talking about engines that just might not even go the distance to their next timing belt change without some other fantastic failure in the powertrain... and you may begin to see my point.
This why when I ride the New Jersey transit down the Coast Line, or Trenton to New York lines I see a dozon or so 944s in the back yards of all the auto repair shops... To the owners of these places, they are now, interesting, novelty cars in fading guards red, white and black from the 1980s that nobody from the general population can ever seem to justify fixing. Wonder why...
We may have been better off if these cars had not been coated in galvanite and they had just rusted away. Instead we see what can be made to look almost new with just a hose, soap, a rag and polishing compound -- and we picture a good going over inside and fresh, leather seat covers, and all the money that was just spent upgrading the suspension -- and all of this blinds us to the serious issue of what these cars are selling for these days -- and the timebomb that awaits under the hood.
My favorite quote of all time is from Dave Ward:
"as you may be able to tell, I'm not all that keen on the design the Porsche engineers came up with here. And then to use a belt they can't guarantee for any certain mileage - [GOING IN]. DUMB! Oh...I almost forgot...if you don't really know the mileage on these two belts, I wouldn't drive the car one foot without re-newing them both!"
So here it is, and you ain't gonna like it...
1. Go out and spend the money for a good 968 if you can because the costs of all the tremendous care that these engines require will be better justified, because of the value of the 968 cars... and find out exactly when the belt/s have been done.
2. Do the belts sooner rather than later, SOON !! especially if someone had the car sitting a while. Subtract ten thousand miles of usable belt life for every year the car has been sitting.
don't rebuild your engine unless you are going big $$$ with a Powerhaus setup or LS1/LS2 as I will be doing when my 968 engine finally goes POOF.
It sucks but, Then you will have access to enjoying this car for life, and you'll never blow an engine again... also, given what you have been saying it's clear that you lust for more power.
All of you 944 owners can justify rebuilds/Powerhaus if you all go out and buy a parts car and GUT IT including the glass, door handles etc, and have the rest hauled away... because then you can set your budgets high inside the engine bays and really get started on your high performance projects.
There just isn't any justification whatsoever for these low-pony 944 builds any more.
Not for that kind of money and low, future reliability, and cars that no one will fork over much money to buy... You guys are really the ones who know better but I just wanted to throw in my 0.02
You love your car... I've been there.
there was a guy on another thread asking a very similar question -- so i just copied and pasted my answer and all you 944 guys are gonna hate me for saying it.
It breaks my heart to hear your story, because the only way you can justify the costs vs value vs longevity vs future costs is to go BIG.
big Powerhaus, and turbos or Ls1, Ls2 time.
as far as your current plan of finding motors and messing around with all the low-budget ****...
I am sorry but it is again the same answer:
No. Your car is now a donor vehicle -- to yourself.
the 944 is my favorite car of all time...I had an '87 944s in Guards Red... visiting my women in Odessa on a quick haul from Austin TX... I Blew a main seal going 135 on I-10 between Kerville and Junction, Halloween, 1994... the saddest day of my life.
Take a look at what decent running 944s are selling for these days... with poorly-engineered, under-sized engines that require half an arm and your leg to maintain every couple of years... really fun when changing the timing and ballance shaft belts and H20 pumps only cost about half of what the cars are now worth, and even then you are talking about engines that just might not even go the distance to their next timing belt change without some other fantastic failure in the powertrain... and you may begin to see my point.
This why when I ride the New Jersey transit down the Coast Line, or Trenton to New York lines I see a dozon or so 944s in the back yards of all the auto repair shops... To the owners of these places, they are now, interesting, novelty cars in fading guards red, white and black from the 1980s that nobody from the general population can ever seem to justify fixing. Wonder why...
We may have been better off if these cars had not been coated in galvanite and they had just rusted away. Instead we see what can be made to look almost new with just a hose, soap, a rag and polishing compound -- and we picture a good going over inside and fresh, leather seat covers, and all the money that was just spent upgrading the suspension -- and all of this blinds us to the serious issue of what these cars are selling for these days -- and the timebomb that awaits under the hood.
My favorite quote of all time is from Dave Ward:
"as you may be able to tell, I'm not all that keen on the design the Porsche engineers came up with here. And then to use a belt they can't guarantee for any certain mileage - [GOING IN]. DUMB! Oh...I almost forgot...if you don't really know the mileage on these two belts, I wouldn't drive the car one foot without re-newing them both!"
So here it is, and you ain't gonna like it...
1. Go out and spend the money for a good 968 if you can because the costs of all the tremendous care that these engines require will be better justified, because of the value of the 968 cars... and find out exactly when the belt/s have been done.
2. Do the belts sooner rather than later, SOON !! especially if someone had the car sitting a while. Subtract ten thousand miles of usable belt life for every year the car has been sitting.
don't rebuild your engine unless you are going big $$$ with a Powerhaus setup or LS1/LS2 as I will be doing when my 968 engine finally goes POOF.
It sucks but, Then you will have access to enjoying this car for life, and you'll never blow an engine again... also, given what you have been saying it's clear that you lust for more power.
All of you 944 owners can justify rebuilds/Powerhaus if you all go out and buy a parts car and GUT IT including the glass, door handles etc, and have the rest hauled away... because then you can set your budgets high inside the engine bays and really get started on your high performance projects.
There just isn't any justification whatsoever for these low-pony 944 builds any more.
Not for that kind of money and low, future reliability, and cars that no one will fork over much money to buy... You guys are really the ones who know better but I just wanted to throw in my 0.02
Last edited by odurandina; 10-31-2009 at 04:39 PM.
10-31-2009, 05:41 AM
#20
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i had thought about a dohc 16v head, but wasn't sure if it would fit the 2.5l, i realize they made 2.5 dohc, but they're rare and parts are up there. they make enough parts for the 8v to warrant keeping that head.
i would've gone with boring the motor .40 over, then sleeving it back to .20 over, getting euro piston's, raising compression from 9.5:1 up to 10.6:1. port and polish the intake, head, and polish the exhaust. with a 2.5" exhaust all the way out, power woulda been somewhere around 210 +/- 5hp. i then woulda upgraded the clutch to an s2 or 951(just for the extra meat), and possibly a 968 6spd or 951 5spd lsd. but it ended up being only 1400 so eh, i'll just wait a lil longer to do it.
i would've gone with boring the motor .40 over, then sleeving it back to .20 over, getting euro piston's, raising compression from 9.5:1 up to 10.6:1. port and polish the intake, head, and polish the exhaust. with a 2.5" exhaust all the way out, power woulda been somewhere around 210 +/- 5hp. i then woulda upgraded the clutch to an s2 or 951(just for the extra meat), and possibly a 968 6spd or 951 5spd lsd. but it ended up being only 1400 so eh, i'll just wait a lil longer to do it.
10-31-2009, 02:11 PM
#21
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it's just that taking all the trouble to find a used engine that might go 40k or 50 k miles seems utterly ridiculous... starting with a brand new engine is a far better way to go despite the fact that you are looking at about 10 k - 18 k for the lsx engine install...
but this setup can go 300,000 miles if you take care of it and don't drive like an ***... and, at least the motor is virtually maintanence free, save for the occasional tuneup and fresh oil. In today's $$$ adjusted for inflation, you are talking about 1/5 to 1/6 the original cost of the vehicle... For a car that we all will love to see you drive until you are dead.
I saw an inexpensive Ls2 with 400 HP go for $2,800.00 last month with only 10 k miles on it. (later on, when it is convenient, you can add a Fast intake, ported heads from Total Engine Airflow and a mild "Comp" cam and you are now talking in the neigborhood of 550 hp) Aston Martin, Ferrari, and GM now all have incredible transaxle cars in their fleets and the first thing they made sure to do was eliminate the fatal mistake that Porsche made in their 924/944/968/928 cars, and put in a real engine.
Read this you all !!
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/v8s-rule/
but this setup can go 300,000 miles if you take care of it and don't drive like an ***... and, at least the motor is virtually maintanence free, save for the occasional tuneup and fresh oil. In today's $$$ adjusted for inflation, you are talking about 1/5 to 1/6 the original cost of the vehicle... For a car that we all will love to see you drive until you are dead.
I saw an inexpensive Ls2 with 400 HP go for $2,800.00 last month with only 10 k miles on it. (later on, when it is convenient, you can add a Fast intake, ported heads from Total Engine Airflow and a mild "Comp" cam and you are now talking in the neigborhood of 550 hp) Aston Martin, Ferrari, and GM now all have incredible transaxle cars in their fleets and the first thing they made sure to do was eliminate the fatal mistake that Porsche made in their 924/944/968/928 cars, and put in a real engine.
Read this you all !!
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/v8s-rule/
Last edited by odurandina; 10-31-2009 at 04:44 PM.
10-31-2009, 03:23 PM
#22
10-31-2009, 04:36 PM
#23
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No...I don't keep up with the turbo cars...if that were important, I'd buy a turbo.
So educate us all...what were the fatal mistakes ?
10-31-2009, 04:51 PM
#24
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I realize there's tons of 200 thousand mile transaxles out there. This really isn't a miracle of nature, despite that I love these engines as much as you do...
All that asside, timing belts that could not be designed for 75 to 100 thousand reliable miles... having belts fail at say, 38 K-miles as a result of temporarily postponing very expensive scheduled maintanance in a car of modest value is INSANE and it always was... maybe for a 100 thousand dollar car... other than that the engines are fantastic. sorry for all the drama. You're right, and that is why I constantly state that going big horsepower in a well-built Porsche engine is fine, but the engineering flaw still remains as a glaring defect, especially when there is a viable alternative in the V8 and 250-300 K of reliable miles @ only 12-15k to get in the door. Such a motor would be working at only fractions of capacity during its servicable lifetime, likely, outlasting us in the process.
some great thoughts about V8 design vs 4 that everyone should read:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/v8s...35&PID=3196529
.
All that asside, timing belts that could not be designed for 75 to 100 thousand reliable miles... having belts fail at say, 38 K-miles as a result of temporarily postponing very expensive scheduled maintanance in a car of modest value is INSANE and it always was... maybe for a 100 thousand dollar car... other than that the engines are fantastic. sorry for all the drama. You're right, and that is why I constantly state that going big horsepower in a well-built Porsche engine is fine, but the engineering flaw still remains as a glaring defect, especially when there is a viable alternative in the V8 and 250-300 K of reliable miles @ only 12-15k to get in the door. Such a motor would be working at only fractions of capacity during its servicable lifetime, likely, outlasting us in the process.
some great thoughts about V8 design vs 4 that everyone should read:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/v8s...35&PID=3196529
.
Last edited by odurandina; 10-31-2009 at 06:00 PM. Reason: link added
10-31-2009, 05:14 PM
#25
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Checking the belt tension every so often costs next to nothing. Replacing it every 20,000 miles costs about $200.00. I don't think this is that big of a deal on a car that cost $53,000 when new....and still don't think it's a big deal on a car I have under $13k invested in (purchase + work done).
Don't get me wrong...the belt is a weak point.....but it's really not a big deal if you keep your maint. up to date.
Don't get me wrong...the belt is a weak point.....but it's really not a big deal if you keep your maint. up to date.
11-02-2009, 11:19 AM
#26
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the timing belt on my car was never replaced because all along(especially the past few months) i've had to do a lot of other things to keep it going.
i'm not putting a v8 American in block cam motor into a euro sports car and destroying the weight balance along with fuel economy and a **** tonne more. i'f i wanted an american motor in a car that could handle i'd buy a late 90's z28 camaro(and yes they can handle)
i like my car, i'm more than capable of doing a timing belt or a full engine rebuild, i just don't have the time between work(4hrs/day) and school(7hrs/day). my car is already repaired so i really don't care anymore
i'm not putting a v8 American in block cam motor into a euro sports car and destroying the weight balance along with fuel economy and a **** tonne more. i'f i wanted an american motor in a car that could handle i'd buy a late 90's z28 camaro(and yes they can handle)
i like my car, i'm more than capable of doing a timing belt or a full engine rebuild, i just don't have the time between work(4hrs/day) and school(7hrs/day). my car is already repaired so i really don't care anymore
11-02-2009, 10:28 PM
#27
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87 944 C ... just to let you know something amazing: GM spent more than 1.5 billion dollars developing the first LS1 engines and they were just getting started... the lsx Gen III and IV engines weigh about 25 pounds more than the n/a porsche engines... research it: they come in about 20 pounds lighter than the porsche turbo engines. as Jeremy Clark might say:
Four cylinder engines are the most heavy engines per unit of displacement yield - IN THE WORLD.
Four cylinder engines are the most heavy engines per unit of displacement yield - IN THE WORLD.
11-02-2009, 10:51 PM
#28
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I realize there's tons of 200 thousand mile transaxles out there. This really isn't a miracle of nature, despite that I love these engines as much as you do...
All that asside, timing belts that could not be designed for 75 to 100 thousand reliable miles... having belts fail at say, 38 K-miles as a result of temporarily postponing very expensive scheduled maintanance in a car of modest value is INSANE and it always was... maybe for a 100 thousand dollar car... other than that the engines are fantastic. sorry for all the drama. You're right, and that is why I constantly state that going big horsepower in a well-built Porsche engine is fine, but the engineering flaw still remains as a glaring defect, especially when there is a viable alternative in the V8 and 250-300 K of reliable miles @ only 12-15k to get in the door. Such a motor would be working at only fractions of capacity during its servicable lifetime, likely, outlasting us in the process.
some great thoughts about V8 design vs 4 that everyone should read:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/v8s...35&PID=3196529
.
All that asside, timing belts that could not be designed for 75 to 100 thousand reliable miles... having belts fail at say, 38 K-miles as a result of temporarily postponing very expensive scheduled maintanance in a car of modest value is INSANE and it always was... maybe for a 100 thousand dollar car... other than that the engines are fantastic. sorry for all the drama. You're right, and that is why I constantly state that going big horsepower in a well-built Porsche engine is fine, but the engineering flaw still remains as a glaring defect, especially when there is a viable alternative in the V8 and 250-300 K of reliable miles @ only 12-15k to get in the door. Such a motor would be working at only fractions of capacity during its servicable lifetime, likely, outlasting us in the process.
some great thoughts about V8 design vs 4 that everyone should read:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/v8s...35&PID=3196529
.
87 944 C ... just to let you know something amazing: GM spent more than 1.5 billion dollars developing the first LS1 engines and they were just getting started... the lsx Gen III and IV engines weigh about 25 pounds more than the n/a porsche engines... research it: they come in about 20 pounds lighter than the porsche turbo engines. as Jeremy Clark might say:
Four cylinder engines are the most heavy engines per unit of displacement yield - IN THE WORLD.
Four cylinder engines are the most heavy engines per unit of displacement yield - IN THE WORLD.
And We the taxpayers payed for it- thanks again GM!
11-02-2009, 10:52 PM
#29
Three Wheelin'
Sounds like you're in good shape. Only other possible (S2) thing: Timing chain plastic guides? Every 100K miles or so seems to be the consensus. I've been toying with the idea of doing mine.
If they've been done even remotely recently then you're simply out of luck; you'll have to find something else to spend you're hard-earned on!
If they've been done even remotely recently then you're simply out of luck; you'll have to find something else to spend you're hard-earned on!
11-02-2009, 11:12 PM
#30
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drove a kid home from school on friday to s. plainfield, nj. got 20ft from his house and my timing belt went. pushed the car to his driveway, and he drove me home.
as of right now it's still sitting there. i hope to get it to a shop next weekend and get the final word of engine death and an estimate. if it's over 3k i'm gonna get the stealth fixed, and bring the 944 home and pull the motor and upgrade it to around 200hp n/a for an 8v...just gotta find where to start.
mind you: keeping it an 8v head and n/a
as of right now it's still sitting there. i hope to get it to a shop next weekend and get the final word of engine death and an estimate. if it's over 3k i'm gonna get the stealth fixed, and bring the 944 home and pull the motor and upgrade it to around 200hp n/a for an 8v...just gotta find where to start.
mind you: keeping it an 8v head and n/a
Was your t-belt old?