Conversion question...
07-21-2002, 06:58 PM
#46
Burning Brakes
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You do not need all those parts:
-turbo tranny would be nice considering the increase in power, the n/a would likely fail
-don't necessary need the turbo motor but would be nice as it got the head, pistons, ect
-don't need the 951 bell housing as the rear is part of the torque tube. The front, you can get a centerforce clutch and keep the n/a bellhousing.
But if you go with a tremendous power increase, you may consider the 951 clutch/bellhousing/flywheel
I am running the CF clutch kit with about
320-330hp on the old setup
-the 951 and the n/a torque tube is the same. I have a 951S tranny on my '86 n/a
-the intercooler is needed, either the stock, LR modified or SFR front mounted. I belive with the above setups, you will need to convert to 951 front end/body .
The one pictured is made for my SC setup courtesy of Tim/SFR, and will fit the N/A nose in place of the factory A/C heat exchanger.
-the rear suspension, you will need either the 951 torsion bars and shocks, or a coilover kit.
-the brakes will need can be left alone or change to 951 with rear calipers and rotors, direct bolt on for the alloy arms on the '86 but unsure on the steel arms. Front will need the spindles, hubs, calipers, rotors, and shocks, steel a-arms should work
-951 radiator, different part number, but I am still using the n/a unit. I don't know how different they are
-951 starter is the same as the n/a
-computer: FSTPRSH said he will be using Holley Commander ECU
I am using Apexi AVC-R boost controller, J&S engine knock eliminator and ERL MF2 additional injector controller 2x440cc for extra fuel
with the SC kit, the AVC-R is now a fancy boost gauge!!
-the exhaust will need something bigger. I was running stock from the downpipe no cat until the downpipe sheared off and drove it like that for a while.
Hope this clarifies things from/for the backyard mechanic
-turbo tranny would be nice considering the increase in power, the n/a would likely fail
-don't necessary need the turbo motor but would be nice as it got the head, pistons, ect
-don't need the 951 bell housing as the rear is part of the torque tube. The front, you can get a centerforce clutch and keep the n/a bellhousing.
But if you go with a tremendous power increase, you may consider the 951 clutch/bellhousing/flywheel
I am running the CF clutch kit with about
320-330hp on the old setup
-the 951 and the n/a torque tube is the same. I have a 951S tranny on my '86 n/a
-the intercooler is needed, either the stock, LR modified or SFR front mounted. I belive with the above setups, you will need to convert to 951 front end/body .
The one pictured is made for my SC setup courtesy of Tim/SFR, and will fit the N/A nose in place of the factory A/C heat exchanger.
-the rear suspension, you will need either the 951 torsion bars and shocks, or a coilover kit.
-the brakes will need can be left alone or change to 951 with rear calipers and rotors, direct bolt on for the alloy arms on the '86 but unsure on the steel arms. Front will need the spindles, hubs, calipers, rotors, and shocks, steel a-arms should work
-951 radiator, different part number, but I am still using the n/a unit. I don't know how different they are
-951 starter is the same as the n/a
-computer: FSTPRSH said he will be using Holley Commander ECU
I am using Apexi AVC-R boost controller, J&S engine knock eliminator and ERL MF2 additional injector controller 2x440cc for extra fuel
with the SC kit, the AVC-R is now a fancy boost gauge!!
-the exhaust will need something bigger. I was running stock from the downpipe no cat until the downpipe sheared off and drove it like that for a while.
Hope this clarifies things from/for the backyard mechanic
07-21-2002, 07:25 PM
#48
Burning Brakes
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Ziggy, I think you may be right in the case of the early 944. My '86 N/A torque tube and the 951 tranny bolted up perfectly, so all '86+ 944 use the same torque tube.
07-21-2002, 07:26 PM
#49
Race Director
Brad, once again, if you can SC a NA 944, you can run a turbo with the same boost level just fine. In fact, the turbo will be easier on the engine than the SC. If Callaway could do it nearly 20 years ago with the technology then, you can do it now.
The critical elements are turbo sizing and engine management. You've indicated that you have the engine management handled. Now you need to work on turbo sizing. I'd highly recommend reading the articles I suggested. Back issues are available from McMullen Argus, the publisher of Sport Compact Car. As for a 3 liter suggestion, there were none in the article.
You'll have to get some custom fabrication work done. That shouldn't be that big a deal.
Lastly, large modern turbos do not have to be laggy. They only need to be sized right. I have friends running T04E and GT3037 turbos on 2 liter engines with minimal lag and putting down 400 hp to the wheels.
The critical elements are turbo sizing and engine management. You've indicated that you have the engine management handled. Now you need to work on turbo sizing. I'd highly recommend reading the articles I suggested. Back issues are available from McMullen Argus, the publisher of Sport Compact Car. As for a 3 liter suggestion, there were none in the article.
You'll have to get some custom fabrication work done. That shouldn't be that big a deal.
Lastly, large modern turbos do not have to be laggy. They only need to be sized right. I have friends running T04E and GT3037 turbos on 2 liter engines with minimal lag and putting down 400 hp to the wheels.
07-21-2002, 08:01 PM
#51
Burning Brakes
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Remember that if you go with a simple exhaust setup such as the Callaway, you are limited with the size of turbo as it will hit the frame or block. I was going to be using a t3/to4B and it barely fit. I was going to cut/notch part of the frame to fit it. I don't know how a to4E would fit without even more mods?
Geoff, if you are talking about the SR20 motors, aren't they mounted transversely? If so you can put just about any turbo on that car as they have the clearance, and if needed, relocating/aftermarket radiator is possible. Big modern turbos with Ball bearing=minimal lag but physically big nontheless. The 944 on the other hand, with a Callaway style turbo manifold is different as you can't just move and relocate the frame or the motor to fit anything big. You will have to go with a factory style manifold/complete turbo exhaust/inkate system. The exhaust of the factory created the extra complex that made me decide to go supercharging. I love the way the turbo kicked in but not worth the extra headaches and labour.
The Callaway kit when it was on my car was maxed out at 15psi, producing about 320-330hp at the flywheel. That was pushing the limits of that turbo, and likely on most turbos that size. I'm told that the RHB6 and the T3 are about the same size.
Geoff, if you are talking about the SR20 motors, aren't they mounted transversely? If so you can put just about any turbo on that car as they have the clearance, and if needed, relocating/aftermarket radiator is possible. Big modern turbos with Ball bearing=minimal lag but physically big nontheless. The 944 on the other hand, with a Callaway style turbo manifold is different as you can't just move and relocate the frame or the motor to fit anything big. You will have to go with a factory style manifold/complete turbo exhaust/inkate system. The exhaust of the factory created the extra complex that made me decide to go supercharging. I love the way the turbo kicked in but not worth the extra headaches and labour.
The Callaway kit when it was on my car was maxed out at 15psi, producing about 320-330hp at the flywheel. That was pushing the limits of that turbo, and likely on most turbos that size. I'm told that the RHB6 and the T3 are about the same size.
07-21-2002, 09:04 PM
#52
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>Remember that if you go with a simple exhaust setup such as the Callaway, you are limited with the size of turbo as it will hit the frame or block. </strong><hr></blockquote>
You've got a point there. I was looking under the hood of my car today and realized there is less clearance than I thought. Is there more clearance down low? If so, it shouldn't be too awfully hard to have a custom manifold fabbed up.
[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>Geoff, if you are talking about the SR20 motors, aren't they mounted transversely? If so you can put just about any turbo on that car as they have the clearance, and if needed, relocating/aftermarket radiator is possible.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
As a matter of fact I am talking about the SR20. It is transversly mounting in the FWD cars. In the RWD cars it's longitudinally mounting. They have even more clearance. BTW, relocating the radiator is not an option on the FWD cars. For the recent really crazy appications, folks are relocating their batteries and using equal length 4-1 manifolds that place the turbo in the space previously occupied by the battery. Anyhow, back to the 944.....
You're right though, I hadn't thought about the clearance issue. Still, I'm sure something could be worked out.
[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>Big modern turbos with Ball bearing=minimal lag but physically big nontheless.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And big in terms of flow of course. Even without the BB center section, I've ridden in some cars with large but properly sized turbos that are pretty amazing.
There are other things that can be done to combat lag. On my G20 I'm running a low mass flywheel, underdrive pulleys, and the manifold, turbine housing, and J-pipe have all been extrude honed and coated with Swain's White Lightning coating. The boost comes on so smooth and low that you can't really feel the onset of boost. The only time it lags at all is if you are loafing around at about 2k and floor it. But if you are hustling it the least little bit you cannot feel the lag. It really feels almost like a well built NA car. I know because I built a NA engine with pretty similar power output for my SE-R.
[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>The 944 on the other hand, with a Callaway style turbo manifold is different as you can't just move and relocate the frame or the motor to fit anything big. You will have to go with a factory style manifold/complete turbo exhaust/inkate system. The exhaust of the factory created the extra complex that made me decide to go supercharging. I love the way the turbo kicked in but not worth the extra headaches and labour.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That makes sense. I've always thought the 951 had an odd set-up, but I see why now.
[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>The Callaway kit when it was on my car was maxed out at 15psi, producing about 320-330hp at the flywheel. That was pushing the limits of that turbo, and likely on most turbos that size. I'm told that the RHB6 and the T3 are about the same size.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'll bet it hustled around nicely.
<strong>Remember that if you go with a simple exhaust setup such as the Callaway, you are limited with the size of turbo as it will hit the frame or block. </strong><hr></blockquote>
You've got a point there. I was looking under the hood of my car today and realized there is less clearance than I thought. Is there more clearance down low? If so, it shouldn't be too awfully hard to have a custom manifold fabbed up.
[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>Geoff, if you are talking about the SR20 motors, aren't they mounted transversely? If so you can put just about any turbo on that car as they have the clearance, and if needed, relocating/aftermarket radiator is possible.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
As a matter of fact I am talking about the SR20. It is transversly mounting in the FWD cars. In the RWD cars it's longitudinally mounting. They have even more clearance. BTW, relocating the radiator is not an option on the FWD cars. For the recent really crazy appications, folks are relocating their batteries and using equal length 4-1 manifolds that place the turbo in the space previously occupied by the battery. Anyhow, back to the 944.....
You're right though, I hadn't thought about the clearance issue. Still, I'm sure something could be worked out.
[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>Big modern turbos with Ball bearing=minimal lag but physically big nontheless.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And big in terms of flow of course. Even without the BB center section, I've ridden in some cars with large but properly sized turbos that are pretty amazing.
There are other things that can be done to combat lag. On my G20 I'm running a low mass flywheel, underdrive pulleys, and the manifold, turbine housing, and J-pipe have all been extrude honed and coated with Swain's White Lightning coating. The boost comes on so smooth and low that you can't really feel the onset of boost. The only time it lags at all is if you are loafing around at about 2k and floor it. But if you are hustling it the least little bit you cannot feel the lag. It really feels almost like a well built NA car. I know because I built a NA engine with pretty similar power output for my SE-R.
[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>The 944 on the other hand, with a Callaway style turbo manifold is different as you can't just move and relocate the frame or the motor to fit anything big. You will have to go with a factory style manifold/complete turbo exhaust/inkate system. The exhaust of the factory created the extra complex that made me decide to go supercharging. I love the way the turbo kicked in but not worth the extra headaches and labour.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That makes sense. I've always thought the 951 had an odd set-up, but I see why now.
[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>The Callaway kit when it was on my car was maxed out at 15psi, producing about 320-330hp at the flywheel. That was pushing the limits of that turbo, and likely on most turbos that size. I'm told that the RHB6 and the T3 are about the same size.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'll bet it hustled around nicely.
07-21-2002, 09:35 PM
#53
Intermediate
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just in case you wanna goof with it.
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07-22-2002, 12:46 AM
#54
Burning Brakes
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i just said that i'm going to try to get 25psi and and that im maxed on pulley size...but it doesnt hurt to try 
and if 600 hp is reached, that is fine with me <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> ....can the 2.5L engine handle it?...only one way to find out...
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and if 600 hp is reached, that is fine with me <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" /> ....can the 2.5L engine handle it?...only one way to find out...
space
