968 Turbo S for sale
07-18-2002, 07:26 PM
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968 Turbo S for sale
<a href="http://www.968turbo.de/968turbosforsale.html" target="_blank">http://www.968turbo.de/968turbosforsale.html</a>
Konstantin
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07-18-2002, 08:16 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by judd944:
<strong>Is that just a 951 power plant in there? could you just make you own? ( provided you have a 968 and 951 to spare)</strong><hr></blockquote>
believe me you need much more parts than a 951 and a 968 to build this car. only the pistons cost over $4000 and this do not include rings!
Then you need a special head that is no longer avaliable etc etc. a 951 engine is useless for this project and from the 968 you can used only the block and this is not the same coating as the 968 turbo Block, then you need another $9000 for the whole tranny and the list go on.
Konstantin
<strong>Is that just a 951 power plant in there? could you just make you own? ( provided you have a 968 and 951 to spare)</strong><hr></blockquote>
believe me you need much more parts than a 951 and a 968 to build this car. only the pistons cost over $4000 and this do not include rings!
Then you need a special head that is no longer avaliable etc etc. a 951 engine is useless for this project and from the 968 you can used only the block and this is not the same coating as the 968 turbo Block, then you need another $9000 for the whole tranny and the list go on.
Konstantin
07-18-2002, 08:51 PM
#6
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Isn't the 2.7 liter NA head practically the same thing as the 968 Turbo head, maybe different valves/springs/port sizes/coatings but fundamentally the same? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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07-18-2002, 09:11 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by PorscheG96:
<strong>Isn't the 2.7 liter NA head practically the same thing as the 968 Turbo head, maybe different valves/springs/port sizes/coatings but fundamentally the same?
</strong><hr></blockquote>Let's say it's fundamentally similar. The 968 Turbo S head uses valves with the smaller stem diameter of the 16V heads so they can fit larger cooling passages in the head. So, yes, you can slap a 2.7 head on the 3 liter block and it will probably work fine for a street car, but I would expect the 968 Turbo S head to work better in a high output car used on the track.
<strong>Isn't the 2.7 liter NA head practically the same thing as the 968 Turbo head, maybe different valves/springs/port sizes/coatings but fundamentally the same?
</strong><hr></blockquote>Let's say it's fundamentally similar. The 968 Turbo S head uses valves with the smaller stem diameter of the 16V heads so they can fit larger cooling passages in the head. So, yes, you can slap a 2.7 head on the 3 liter block and it will probably work fine for a street car, but I would expect the 968 Turbo S head to work better in a high output car used on the track.
07-19-2002, 02:47 AM
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Actually I was told by Chris at Technodyne that what Konstantin is saying is true. The 968Turbo RS has a Nikisil block! Chris has a 968RS in his shop torn down, and is still trying to source pistons. Looking at the detail pic of the engine compartment, this is the best replica I have seen. Every factory part is there, from the NACA duct adapter on the factory air box, to the 968Turbo air intake hose. If you look closely you will see the blow off valve is located forward not beside the expansion tank as the 951 is!I can confirm the price on the head when purchased mine in 1997 was 1800.00. Pistons were 922.00 each, and that didn't include rings.
Tom your theory on the factory 968 Turbo head compared to 2.7 head is partly correct.
The 2.7 head has larger intake ports to correspond the larger intake valve of the 2.7
Intake ports are opened up to 44mm. The intake valve is increased from 45 to 48mm.
On the 968 TurboS head the intake ports are same as 2.5 head. The exhaust ports are much smaller in Turbo S head than 2.5 head. 968 Turbo S head does have a huge water jacket! The valves are the same size as 2.5, but have thinner stems like the 16 valve heads. However the reasoning behind the smaller ports, had to do with fact the 968TurboRS was designed to run in the ADAC cup. Horsepower was limited, so Porsche went for flat torque curve.To quote John Milledge, Porsche was limited in the horsepower they could produce, so they just made car so it produced the max over the entire RPM band! Personally I agree with Tom, this is much more usable to the average street/track car, and thus my original desire to copy this engine. I just picked up a new 968 block a few weeks ago,to go with my 968Turbo head, but the pistons are stumbling point for me now.
Guess I could have block Nikisil coated? However I am not sure about alloy content differences if any that exist between Porsche pistons intended for Nikisil for 968 Turbo and 968 Alusil block and their respective expansion rates and how that would play with maintaining tight tolerence to avoid blow by/leakdown.
Oh well, I am still enjoying the journey and am in no hurry.
James
Tom your theory on the factory 968 Turbo head compared to 2.7 head is partly correct.
The 2.7 head has larger intake ports to correspond the larger intake valve of the 2.7
Intake ports are opened up to 44mm. The intake valve is increased from 45 to 48mm.
On the 968 TurboS head the intake ports are same as 2.5 head. The exhaust ports are much smaller in Turbo S head than 2.5 head. 968 Turbo S head does have a huge water jacket! The valves are the same size as 2.5, but have thinner stems like the 16 valve heads. However the reasoning behind the smaller ports, had to do with fact the 968TurboRS was designed to run in the ADAC cup. Horsepower was limited, so Porsche went for flat torque curve.To quote John Milledge, Porsche was limited in the horsepower they could produce, so they just made car so it produced the max over the entire RPM band! Personally I agree with Tom, this is much more usable to the average street/track car, and thus my original desire to copy this engine. I just picked up a new 968 block a few weeks ago,to go with my 968Turbo head, but the pistons are stumbling point for me now.
Guess I could have block Nikisil coated? However I am not sure about alloy content differences if any that exist between Porsche pistons intended for Nikisil for 968 Turbo and 968 Alusil block and their respective expansion rates and how that would play with maintaining tight tolerence to avoid blow by/leakdown.
Oh well, I am still enjoying the journey and am in no hurry.
James
07-19-2002, 06:05 AM
#10
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"Isn't the 2.7 liter NA head practically the same thing as the 968 Turbo head,"
Also don't forget that the 968 Turbo head had ceramic exhaust port liners like the 951. The thickness of which ended up taking away precious flow diameter. Chris @ Technodyne told me that he actually went to a 2.7L head on his 968 Turbo engine to gain more power before it flowed so much better.
"Guess I could have block Nikisil coated? However I am not sure about alloy content differences if any that exist between Porsche pistons intended for Nikisil for 968 Turbo and 968 Alusil block and their respective expansion rates and how that would play with maintaining tight tolerence to avoid blow by/leakdown.
Sure why not? Since Nikasil is a plating/coating, you can apply it on top of just about anything.
Now here's a puzzle that's been bugging me about my Physics AP test in High School. Say you have a hole in a plate of aluminum. Kinda like the cylinder bores in a block. Then you head it up and the surrounding metal expands. Dimensionally, what happens to that hole (and the bore)? Does it get smaller because the material around it expands? Or does aluminum only expand in one direction, outwards? And the hole gets larger? How does aluminum know in which direction to expand?
Also don't forget that the 968 Turbo head had ceramic exhaust port liners like the 951. The thickness of which ended up taking away precious flow diameter. Chris @ Technodyne told me that he actually went to a 2.7L head on his 968 Turbo engine to gain more power before it flowed so much better.
"Guess I could have block Nikisil coated? However I am not sure about alloy content differences if any that exist between Porsche pistons intended for Nikisil for 968 Turbo and 968 Alusil block and their respective expansion rates and how that would play with maintaining tight tolerence to avoid blow by/leakdown.
Sure why not? Since Nikasil is a plating/coating, you can apply it on top of just about anything.
Now here's a puzzle that's been bugging me about my Physics AP test in High School. Say you have a hole in a plate of aluminum. Kinda like the cylinder bores in a block. Then you head it up and the surrounding metal expands. Dimensionally, what happens to that hole (and the bore)? Does it get smaller because the material around it expands? Or does aluminum only expand in one direction, outwards? And the hole gets larger? How does aluminum know in which direction to expand?
07-19-2002, 11:44 AM
#11
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Danno, I know the hole gets bigger, but I don't know why. You know when someone says "That's a good question", you're not going to get a good answer.
Well, that's a good question.
Well, that's a good question.
07-19-2002, 12:12 PM
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the reason for the diferent head and valves were the low end torque
check my site to see the numbers on the wheel for the 968 Turbo S
<a href="http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~y0003315/951Dyno.html" target="_blank">http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~y0003315/951Dyno.html</a>
Konstantin
check my site to see the numbers on the wheel for the 968 Turbo S
<a href="http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~y0003315/951Dyno.html" target="_blank">http://www-public.tu-bs.de:8080/~y0003315/951Dyno.html</a>
Konstantin
07-19-2002, 01:00 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Danno:
Now here's a puzzle that's been bugging me about my Physics AP test in High School. Say you have a hole in a plate of aluminum. Kinda like the cylinder bores in a block. Then you head it up and the surrounding metal expands. Dimensionally, what happens to that hole (and the bore)? Does it get smaller because the material around it expands? Or does aluminum only expand in one direction, outwards? And the hole gets larger? How does aluminum know in which direction to expand?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
Assuming uniform heating, the hole gets larger, too... the outside wall moves out, right? The lesser amount of material on the inside wall "moves along with it", so to speak... besides, the inner wall is expanding due to heat, so it has to become longer (greater circumference = bigger diameter). ~3rd week, Strength of Materials (MEC 250).
Where I think engines get into problems is that the outside of the block doesn't heat as much as the bore, so the expansion of the bore is restrained. The piston can grow unrestrained until it 'catches up' with the diameter of the bore... not a good thing.
Jim, "Where are we going, and what's with this handbasket?"
Now here's a puzzle that's been bugging me about my Physics AP test in High School. Say you have a hole in a plate of aluminum. Kinda like the cylinder bores in a block. Then you head it up and the surrounding metal expands. Dimensionally, what happens to that hole (and the bore)? Does it get smaller because the material around it expands? Or does aluminum only expand in one direction, outwards? And the hole gets larger? How does aluminum know in which direction to expand?[/QB]<hr></blockquote>
Assuming uniform heating, the hole gets larger, too... the outside wall moves out, right? The lesser amount of material on the inside wall "moves along with it", so to speak... besides, the inner wall is expanding due to heat, so it has to become longer (greater circumference = bigger diameter). ~3rd week, Strength of Materials (MEC 250).
Where I think engines get into problems is that the outside of the block doesn't heat as much as the bore, so the expansion of the bore is restrained. The piston can grow unrestrained until it 'catches up' with the diameter of the bore... not a good thing.
Jim, "Where are we going, and what's with this handbasket?"
07-19-2002, 01:19 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by ecpunk:
<strong>I would rather have one of the original 13 like the one down the road.
Sorry, don't like imitation cheese, don't like imitation porsches either.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
no problem pay $60000 and buy an original one;-)
but let me know how do you know if it is an original one or not. Between both cars, except the VIN all other parts are the same. even the last bolt and this car ha sthe updated 968 Turbo rods not the one that went originaly in the first cars that break under high load condition on teh track.
BTW if you are so rich ther eis one in the US with the original VIN but NO 968 Turbo engine. Buy both and swap the parts. I do not know if it is worth the money and the work but if you want an "original" it should be worth the money and the time
BTW Franks car (the one on the pic) is not 100% original as you think. there are also Porsche parts that were not delivered with this car (straut brace, exhuats etc) but since these are Porsche parts for a 968 Turbo S/RS I would consider it as "original"
Konstantin
PS there are much more than 13 968 Turbo s Cars build
25 to be exact and NONE know better than the Weissach department. Some of them were prototypes , some destroyed for testing so the yshould be about 17 around. I know at least 16 cars that are still driving.
<strong>I would rather have one of the original 13 like the one down the road.
Sorry, don't like imitation cheese, don't like imitation porsches either.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
no problem pay $60000 and buy an original one;-)
but let me know how do you know if it is an original one or not. Between both cars, except the VIN all other parts are the same. even the last bolt and this car ha sthe updated 968 Turbo rods not the one that went originaly in the first cars that break under high load condition on teh track.
BTW if you are so rich ther eis one in the US with the original VIN but NO 968 Turbo engine. Buy both and swap the parts. I do not know if it is worth the money and the work but if you want an "original" it should be worth the money and the time
BTW Franks car (the one on the pic) is not 100% original as you think. there are also Porsche parts that were not delivered with this car (straut brace, exhuats etc) but since these are Porsche parts for a 968 Turbo S/RS I would consider it as "original"
Konstantin
PS there are much more than 13 968 Turbo s Cars build
25 to be exact and NONE know better than the Weissach department. Some of them were prototypes , some destroyed for testing so the yshould be about 17 around. I know at least 16 cars that are still driving.