944S Boyeee has ??? valves bent????
07-15-2002, 02:39 PM
#1
Drifting
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944S Boyeee has ??? valves bent????
First of all - I have 8 bent valves (all exhaust valves I think).
Now - here is the problem.....
All of the boots or hats or buckets whatever you call them (the things on the backside of the valves in the head) came out of the head with no problem - except one!!! The valve that bent worst is the one that has the stuck bucket. The lower part of the engine is fine. The head is being sent to a machine shop to see if they can get the bucket out and to check if the head is ok.
Anyone know why a bucket would get stuck? Is this an obvious sign the head is screwed??? Ot could the bucket just be warped or something??
Also, if I need a new head - would it be finacially more advantageous to replace the head ($3000+3000 labour) or go a total other way - i.e. replace the engine with a $1200 S2 engine or do the (shudder) Chevy conversion. Does anyone know if the S2 head will fit my car? Cause I could buy the S2 motor and just use the head, as it would be cheaper than buying a new head?
944S Boyeee
Now - here is the problem.....
All of the boots or hats or buckets whatever you call them (the things on the backside of the valves in the head) came out of the head with no problem - except one!!! The valve that bent worst is the one that has the stuck bucket. The lower part of the engine is fine. The head is being sent to a machine shop to see if they can get the bucket out and to check if the head is ok.
Anyone know why a bucket would get stuck? Is this an obvious sign the head is screwed??? Ot could the bucket just be warped or something??
Also, if I need a new head - would it be finacially more advantageous to replace the head ($3000+3000 labour) or go a total other way - i.e. replace the engine with a $1200 S2 engine or do the (shudder) Chevy conversion. Does anyone know if the S2 head will fit my car? Cause I could buy the S2 motor and just use the head, as it would be cheaper than buying a new head?
944S Boyeee
07-15-2002, 03:08 PM
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The 8-valve purchase is out of the picture. I'm too use to the 16 Valve extra ohummph. Turbo...maybe.
I found a head at Part Heaven for only $1500 - so IF I need one, I can do that.
944S Boyeee
I found a head at Part Heaven for only $1500 - so IF I need one, I can do that.
944S Boyeee
07-15-2002, 03:17 PM
#4
Race Car
Europroducts has the best deal on S valves and usually run a special on the exhaust valves.
Did you try rotating the cams with the head off..?
The cam lobe should push the bucket lifter out enough to grab it with something since you'll be replacing at least that one anyway.
There's just a bore in the aluminum to accomodate he bucket's OD and an oil supply hole with a groove cut on the inside diameter of the head's bucket bore to allow oil to travel 360deg. around the lifter.
Lifters can "mushroom" (diameter larger than originally designed) causing it to be difficult to remove but the top loaded design of the "bucket over valve" of the S engine shouldn't pose a problem here.
When these engines (16V) come to an abrubt stop like yours did the cam drive sprocket (chain sprocket on the exhaust cam) wants to stop and the momentum of the intake cam can cause teeth to break or be stressed. Check these teeth closely, two used cams run around $800 and may sway your decision on which route to go.
Cam timing during reassembly is crucial to the longevity of the engine so make sure you understand the procedure and follow to the letter when reassembling.
Cams good, lifter removal possible, lifter bore can be dressed, your OK, have the head redone and stick with what you have.
I have succesfully removed .030" form S heads raising the compression slightly without detonation.
The DME in the S cars is the most advanced of the 944 cars and can easily compensate timing/fuel even if you are using 87/89 octane fuel.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Keep us posted here even if you go with an entirely different engine, I may take the 16v head off your hands even if it's damaged..
Terry
Did you try rotating the cams with the head off..?
The cam lobe should push the bucket lifter out enough to grab it with something since you'll be replacing at least that one anyway.
There's just a bore in the aluminum to accomodate he bucket's OD and an oil supply hole with a groove cut on the inside diameter of the head's bucket bore to allow oil to travel 360deg. around the lifter.
Lifters can "mushroom" (diameter larger than originally designed) causing it to be difficult to remove but the top loaded design of the "bucket over valve" of the S engine shouldn't pose a problem here.
When these engines (16V) come to an abrubt stop like yours did the cam drive sprocket (chain sprocket on the exhaust cam) wants to stop and the momentum of the intake cam can cause teeth to break or be stressed. Check these teeth closely, two used cams run around $800 and may sway your decision on which route to go.
Cam timing during reassembly is crucial to the longevity of the engine so make sure you understand the procedure and follow to the letter when reassembling.
Cams good, lifter removal possible, lifter bore can be dressed, your OK, have the head redone and stick with what you have.
I have succesfully removed .030" form S heads raising the compression slightly without detonation.
The DME in the S cars is the most advanced of the 944 cars and can easily compensate timing/fuel even if you are using 87/89 octane fuel.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
Keep us posted here even if you go with an entirely different engine, I may take the 16v head off your hands even if it's damaged..
Terry
07-15-2002, 04:35 PM
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951and944S.....when you say the lifter bore can be dressed - do you mean that if the bucket is stuck and hasn't cracked the head - that the lil' lobe can be "machined" like a cyclinder wall?
My mechanic said that if the bucket shifted or caused damage to the head (not a crack, but other "warpy" damage) that they can't machine that part of the head. Is this true? I dunno.
Also - I need a rough guesstamate on how much in parts it will cost me to fix all this. Say the head is fine and I need 8 valves - what other parts do I need to put it back together, besides all the timing belts, etc?
I know I need some gaskets (new head gasket, cam cover gasket, lil' gaskets for the bolts that hold the cam cover on, etc, etc) and I'm gonna get a new Idle Stablizer Valve done while he is in there. I was roughly quoted $500 in labour so far (he took the head off). I figure new valves should run me around $500. Add another 500-600 in labour to put it all back together. Now I'm at $1500. The mechanic said the whole thing should cost around $3500 (plus taxes). He said about $1500 in parts. I can see the valves being $500, like I said - but where does the extra $1000 in parts come from???
944S Boyeee
My mechanic said that if the bucket shifted or caused damage to the head (not a crack, but other "warpy" damage) that they can't machine that part of the head. Is this true? I dunno.
Also - I need a rough guesstamate on how much in parts it will cost me to fix all this. Say the head is fine and I need 8 valves - what other parts do I need to put it back together, besides all the timing belts, etc?
I know I need some gaskets (new head gasket, cam cover gasket, lil' gaskets for the bolts that hold the cam cover on, etc, etc) and I'm gonna get a new Idle Stablizer Valve done while he is in there. I was roughly quoted $500 in labour so far (he took the head off). I figure new valves should run me around $500. Add another 500-600 in labour to put it all back together. Now I'm at $1500. The mechanic said the whole thing should cost around $3500 (plus taxes). He said about $1500 in parts. I can see the valves being $500, like I said - but where does the extra $1000 in parts come from???
944S Boyeee
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07-15-2002, 05:13 PM
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That's what I was thinking. But I'd rather try and get a list from here. I'm sure he totally knows what parts to get, but the folks here seem to know EXACTLY what parts to get and the best deals.
I asked what a 944S head would cost and he said $3200 American. We all know that is very high. I just don't want this trend to continue when getting all the other parts......
944S Boyeee
I asked what a 944S head would cost and he said $3200 American. We all know that is very high. I just don't want this trend to continue when getting all the other parts......
944S Boyeee
07-15-2002, 08:59 PM
#9
944sBoyee
I went through this same crap a few years back with an 86 928s. 31 of the 32 valves were bent and I checked around and got those same kinda "Highway Robbery" prices ranging from 2000-3500 per head. I ended up telling all those guys to go and screw themselves. I bought all 32 valves from TRW for $1400, new guides and seats, headgasket set, belts and waterpump and all in all spent less than $2500. Also the damn machine shop wanted to charge about 400 per head for the valve job. Instead, I pulled all the valves myself and just had the machine shop mill the head and replace the guides and seats and he only charged about $180 per head. He said it was a real pain removing and installing the valves, I didnt think it was so difficult. I also had to spend $100 to have Porsche tension the belt. Perfect tension on a 928s is critical. I wonder if the belt tension is as critical on a 944s or S2? As far as I know the 928s and S4 was the only timing belt Porsche that had a belt tension warning light in the dash.
Anyways, there is always a cost effective way of fixing a Porsche if you cut out a few of the middlemen. You know, Porsches are very well engineered and just straight up awesome cars but............comeon................$3000 for a head is just lunacy and not to far from extortion! Also there is no magic to work on a Porsche. If you have a factory manual and know how to read and comprehend, you can do most everythong yourself.
Ofcourse, I could be wrong.(first time for everything) lol
Dave
I went through this same crap a few years back with an 86 928s. 31 of the 32 valves were bent and I checked around and got those same kinda "Highway Robbery" prices ranging from 2000-3500 per head. I ended up telling all those guys to go and screw themselves. I bought all 32 valves from TRW for $1400, new guides and seats, headgasket set, belts and waterpump and all in all spent less than $2500. Also the damn machine shop wanted to charge about 400 per head for the valve job. Instead, I pulled all the valves myself and just had the machine shop mill the head and replace the guides and seats and he only charged about $180 per head. He said it was a real pain removing and installing the valves, I didnt think it was so difficult. I also had to spend $100 to have Porsche tension the belt. Perfect tension on a 928s is critical. I wonder if the belt tension is as critical on a 944s or S2? As far as I know the 928s and S4 was the only timing belt Porsche that had a belt tension warning light in the dash.
Anyways, there is always a cost effective way of fixing a Porsche if you cut out a few of the middlemen. You know, Porsches are very well engineered and just straight up awesome cars but............comeon................$3000 for a head is just lunacy and not to far from extortion! Also there is no magic to work on a Porsche. If you have a factory manual and know how to read and comprehend, you can do most everythong yourself.
Ofcourse, I could be wrong.(first time for everything) lol
Dave
07-15-2002, 09:41 PM
#10
what kinda ball park $$$$ wise would you have to be in to get an S2 motor?
Just the thought of not driving my S2 for 5-6 months with the motor out might make it worth it to have a second motor.
Just the thought of not driving my S2 for 5-6 months with the motor out might make it worth it to have a second motor.
07-15-2002, 10:04 PM
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I've seen good used S2 engines go for about $4000. If you're going this route, perhaps you'd consider a 968 engine? 28 more bhp would be nice. You'd have to get the donor car's DME and wiring harness, etc. I'm not sure if the exhaust would be a straight bolt-up, but I'm sure someone knows. I think Excellence did a story on a similar swap...and one of the guys on this board put a 968 engine into an early 944.
07-16-2002, 12:39 AM
#13
Race Car
Boyee yes I think to a certain extent the bore could be dressed, but not the lifter....
The valves sold by Europroducts *are* TRW, the same as Dave above stated, good quality and the exhaust ones run sometimes as low as $27 on special...
Unless the stems don't measure to spec or the angled surface is pitted too bad to grind, you should be able to reuse the intakes....
Have the guides replaced on the ones that were bent-trust me on this....they are only a couple bucks a-piece...
Here's what I'd if I were you;
Verify that the head is "servicable"
Let an "uninvolved" second party do the head
Pay the mechanic shop only the R&R labor.
Get the gasket set yourself (headset), Europroducts has Victor Rienz (good quality).
I have Mitchell and Chilton's time estimating guides since I am a repair shop and Chiltons states 9.3 hours to "renew" head gasket. Since you'll sub-out the head work that's all your tech should charge x his hourly rate. If it's $50 per hour count on $500 labor, $250 for valves (8), $150 for a headset, and a local shop should be able to resurface (make sure and specify maximum you will accept to be removed over .030 your in trouble) and regrind seats and valve angles along with replacing the necessary guides for around $200-$300. I just had a Volvo head done a few weeks back (5 cyl. inline) with all guides for $265...get the headset quick as the headshop will request the stem seals to do the job...
That'll leave you with the miscellaneous expense of oil/filter/coolant...etc...
Cam drive chain/pad too....
Turn key should be around $1200, by all means make sure the wrench has the correct cam timing procedure without embarrasing him, this is KEY in not having to do this again or having your cams destroyed. It's a complex procedure that includes the mounting of two dial indicators, settle for nothing less. I can scan and copy the procedure for you if necessary.
Keep your head up and let those "light fuse and get away" comments run off you like water on a duck's back, the S is getting more rare due to this type of BS advice, be proud to own one, IMO...
Terry S.
944t@bellsouth.net
The valves sold by Europroducts *are* TRW, the same as Dave above stated, good quality and the exhaust ones run sometimes as low as $27 on special...
Unless the stems don't measure to spec or the angled surface is pitted too bad to grind, you should be able to reuse the intakes....
Have the guides replaced on the ones that were bent-trust me on this....they are only a couple bucks a-piece...
Here's what I'd if I were you;
Verify that the head is "servicable"
Let an "uninvolved" second party do the head
Pay the mechanic shop only the R&R labor.
Get the gasket set yourself (headset), Europroducts has Victor Rienz (good quality).
I have Mitchell and Chilton's time estimating guides since I am a repair shop and Chiltons states 9.3 hours to "renew" head gasket. Since you'll sub-out the head work that's all your tech should charge x his hourly rate. If it's $50 per hour count on $500 labor, $250 for valves (8), $150 for a headset, and a local shop should be able to resurface (make sure and specify maximum you will accept to be removed over .030 your in trouble) and regrind seats and valve angles along with replacing the necessary guides for around $200-$300. I just had a Volvo head done a few weeks back (5 cyl. inline) with all guides for $265...get the headset quick as the headshop will request the stem seals to do the job...
That'll leave you with the miscellaneous expense of oil/filter/coolant...etc...
Cam drive chain/pad too....
Turn key should be around $1200, by all means make sure the wrench has the correct cam timing procedure without embarrasing him, this is KEY in not having to do this again or having your cams destroyed. It's a complex procedure that includes the mounting of two dial indicators, settle for nothing less. I can scan and copy the procedure for you if necessary.
Keep your head up and let those "light fuse and get away" comments run off you like water on a duck's back, the S is getting more rare due to this type of BS advice, be proud to own one, IMO...
Terry S.
944t@bellsouth.net
07-16-2002, 02:06 PM
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Just found out the head is fine (wheeeewwwwah). I must have gotten lucky (Erick can verify this 
)
Now some questions (again).
1. I have already been warned about the Cam Timing having to be perfectly set - are there any other key procedures I should look out for when putting this all back together?
2. Now that the head is off - what can I do as "performance upgrades". What about the head? Can anything be done at the machine shop to help increase performance? What about these "wide fire" headgaskets? I'd like to know all the possible things I can do "while he is in there".
3. My mechanic brought up the culprit belt he had to CUT off. It's part number 944.105.323.02 - it a big toothed belt. He is puzzled as to why it sheered off like 20 teeth. The waterpump was done with the belts 40,000 Klms ago (around 25,000 miles). Crappy thing is the warrenty on this particular belt was like 30 months/endless mileage. I was just over the warrenty time!!! Ahhhhh!! Now if I was still in warrenty time, what would they do? Pay for the belt, or the damage it caused?
Thanks again all!!
944S Boyeee
)Now some questions (again).
1. I have already been warned about the Cam Timing having to be perfectly set - are there any other key procedures I should look out for when putting this all back together?
2. Now that the head is off - what can I do as "performance upgrades". What about the head? Can anything be done at the machine shop to help increase performance? What about these "wide fire" headgaskets? I'd like to know all the possible things I can do "while he is in there".
3. My mechanic brought up the culprit belt he had to CUT off. It's part number 944.105.323.02 - it a big toothed belt. He is puzzled as to why it sheered off like 20 teeth. The waterpump was done with the belts 40,000 Klms ago (around 25,000 miles). Crappy thing is the warrenty on this particular belt was like 30 months/endless mileage. I was just over the warrenty time!!! Ahhhhh!! Now if I was still in warrenty time, what would they do? Pay for the belt, or the damage it caused?
Thanks again all!!
944S Boyeee