PrerYDoG

I'll give it to you guys from the other end of the pole. I've been working my current position within a company for three years. I busted my ***, hard, programming stuff that no one in the company would touch. I raised the level of technology within multiple plants, because the true "development team" in Chicago turned down every project that required them to lift a finger (which, here's one for you guys, how do corpies keep their jobs? They turn down ALL work so that it makes them look like their too busy to do any of it...figure that one out). Anyway, last year, no raise, instead I've been training what everyone in the building (save a few) see as my replacement. Yah, that's what I'm doing. And management can't understand why I'm DISGRUNTLED, and demanding that they pay me what I'm worth? I make 10K less than the average developer in my area. I put in over 40 hours a week on salary, and I have a person I work with that I RETRAIN DAILY on the SAME STUPID STUFF.

And they can't figure out why I'm pissed? They hand out bonuses to people because they fear they may be looking for another job. They stiff me on raises because they think I won't leave! I put in 80 hours a week for 6 months in order to get one of their "special rush projects" out the door. I took work home, I trained myself (and spent a lot of money doing it) to get the skills needed to just complete the project.

I'm 23, I'm a programmer, I work hard, have work ethics, am loyal to my company...and I'm looking for a job, because management is the biggest obsticle to good employees.

Rich Sandor

Do you voice your issues to your boss? Does she/he listen? If not, go above thier heads.

Perry 951

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Do you voice your issues to your boss? Does she/he listen? If not, go above thier heads.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">My boss is by far the best manager in the company. He does everything he can to help out in my situation. Short of firing all the staff and making a computer run the stations, there is little else we can do other than to rely on our employees. About 1 in 20 is a good employee, and it takes a lot of failures and time to find them. Above him, you have the corperate clowns that see the bottom line and not who is under it. As long as the work gets done, why the hell do they care?

If we paid employees $50k+ for a 30 hour a week job and clamped down on every little thing, we could make progress. Unfortunately, that is not going to happen. Money does make people work a little harder, but I come from the old school. Work hard to make more money, not get paid more money to work hard. Still, getting more money out of a corperation is next to impossible.

Perfect example, I hire in part time work at $8.50 an hour. Some of my employees who have been here for a few years are still at $7 an hour, what they were hired in at. I battled for a year to bump up the new hire rate of pay, and at the same time, battled for a "Pay-Per-Performance" raise system. Yup, I can pay the new guys more, and cannot give raises to the good workers I have.

So, I have a knucklehead come in off the street making $1.50 an hour more than someone who has been here for 2 years, proven themselves, and rarely causes an issue.

I am all for paying good employees a nice living wage. The more they make the better, but you have to work up to that point. Yea.. Corperate America is a significant problem in the work force. There is no competition anymore. There is no desire to beat the guys across the street, because your company probably owns them.

Really, it is a sad situation.

thomschoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by PrerYDoG:
[QB]Anyway, last year, no raise, instead I've been training what everyone in the building (save a few) see as my replacement. QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Sadly this is the norm, they know you will stay so they dont have to fight for your money. Many companies have also implemented max raise policies so it is hard to bring good people up, you have to vote with your feet. This is never easy but it beats the heck out of feeling/being used.

Rich Sandor

if you are training someone to do your job, common sense says you should get extra pay for showing someone how to do your job, AND do your job at the same time.

thomschoon

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Perry 951:
[QB][QUOTE] Money does make people work a little harder, QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Money only serves as a short time motivation tool, after a few paychecks you get used to it and expect more. I have a couple of guys who make nice six figure incomes and without some job satisfaction built in there they would spend most of there time on the internet or playing games.

Money is usually the biggest de motivator as you can never give a big enough raise or bonus to make everybody happy.

Perry 951

I agree that raises wear off, but the diffrence here is someone that makes $20k a year vs $100k a year.

Giving someone a living wage (with a family, $30k) and holding them to some accountability will make a diffrence at some point.

Again, the problem is that it is expected, rather than earned. How do we change it?

PrerYDoG

Rich - You're right. But businesses aren't run by common sense anymore. If anyone is into Six Sigma, TQM, quality management etc. (as I am trained in), read some of Demmings books, as he relates well to both business management, and those worker bees who make the products that give CEO's the ability to skim off the top!

thomschoon - You too are correct. Money isn't the only motivator. I have been working at my "reduced" rate for awhile, mainly because I really enjoyed my job, and I was (naive) under the impression that the company would do the right thing. The closer and closer I get to April (when evals and raises are given), the more I see that that is not going to happen. Oh well, with my young age and qualifications, they'll miss me, but someone else will be glad to have me.

thomschoon

The change takes place when the organization begins to focus on the future not just the next fiscal period. Building a culture in a company is not easy and it takes time as well as a strong leader who has vision. But it also can start anywhere in a company, while it is better to start at the top, you can also do it in your own group. We have all seen groups where everyone wanted to be part of that team, build your own by emulating that leader. Focus on the journey versus the end state,because in reality you never get there because you will continue to expand on what it is you are trying to achieve.

I will get off my soap box now, you see I get paid to facilitate change in organizations so this is near and dear to my heart.

SoCal Driver

Very good OT (but quite On Topic!) thread!

Let me add my 30 years of drone to supervisor experience. Yes I'm just over 50 but have a 14 year old son. I can honestly say that the workers of my "generation" didn't have the sandbagger to worker ratio that I've seen in the last ten to fifteen years. Why? We didn't have the best things in life given to us.

If you wanted that new bike you got a paper route or worked in the local hamburger stand or mowed lawns. Yes you could do those things 40 years ago because we didn't have this scourge of illegals taking every low paying job they could find and there was no minimum wage. Now don't get off on me because I'm telling it like it is. My heart goes out to these people to try to escape a politically corrupt and devastated economic system.

I've tried to keep this "if you want it earn it" attitude with the 14 year old but it's hard when all of his peers get mostly what they want. It's been easier for me to do this limited benefits thing lately as I'm going through the younger for older worker trade offs here in southern California too. No income no wide screen TV!

Perry 951; One of my best high school friends has been the station manager for one of the most stable Los Angles easy listening FM radio stations for almost twenty years if not longer. His employee problems are just like yours. So it's not the weather. You are fortunate that you can set the hiring and dismissal criteria. As others here have related the most of the rest of us managers as stuck with the incompetency of HR.

I have never run across an HR person that has the slightest idea about how to hire for a technical position. Even though they have been given a go-no go filter to establish even the basics of criteria. Small companies that let the manager or supervisor do the hiring and have an owner that knows the position are the ones I've had the best luck with. Still there is the get them for the lowest pay problem.

The last small company I worked for, a father-son thing, had two designer/drafters (I was one) and a part time secretary. I didn't get a raise for three years. When I asked I was fired the next day because of my "attitude". Yes I nailed him for unemployment even though he squealed like a stuck pig. Took him three months to find a replacement and he lost a lot of work. It would have been far less expensive for him to give a reasonable raise than to be stingy. Oh yes his do two hours of work a day and play with the Internet the rest son was getting $50,000 a year! the owner also had his two worthless daughters on the pay roll part time. They never showed up except to collect their pay checks.

As to The Clan Of The Sheep Skin: This is the good old boy syndrome in reverse. It's also an HR trick to filter the applicants to keep HR's butt out of the ringer. HR is not beyond the same problems that any other department has with trying to survive poor management. Being in engineering (nothing really complex) I groaned every time I got a college grad. Maybe one out of twenty had the right stuff. The rest couldn't design themselves out of a wet paper bag.

Well off my soap box now. Got to send out some resumes.

BC

This is a thread that I have read all the way through with great interest. I worked for 7years in the IT industry back in the midwest. When I moved to San Diego, , I realized that I wanted a change, and that I really wasn't getting anywhere with what I was doing - or at least not in the direction that I wanted.

I was never a manager. I had a bunch, however, and almost every single one of them were totally unwualified for that level of responsibility.
How does someone who is TECHNICALLY competant, but verbally, socially, and interpersonally incompetant constantly get a management level position? This was my gripe, and always will be.

I will have to manage people very soon in my present career (very different from IT), but I will be very gun shy about the actions that I take. Why? Because it was so horrible to be thumbed on when I was being "managed".

I suppose that all of you that have posted here are pretty set in y our current careers, but so was I. BUt I moved, and I wanted to start something new, and now I work for myself. Those of you with iron clad work ethics will do great on your own, as long as you can do something without knowing that someone will fire you if you don't.

Thats my suggestion - which is obviously quite far from what the original poster of this thread intended to speak about, but.....

Work for yourself, and all these problems go away. New ones multiply, but hey....

Perry 951

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Work for yourself, and all these problems go away. New ones multiply, but hey....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Believe me, I have stayed awake in bed many a night thinking about what I would want to do if I were to start a business. I have had many diffrent jobs in my life, covering several fields, and I always end up in management. I enjoy it, and know full well I would do fine on my own if I could decide what I wanted to do.

Until that lightbulb goes off in my head, this carrer is fine. I love my job, hate the hours, and hate the stress that comes from a bad support team. A little more cash would be nice, but that is not the bottom line for me. I want to be happy.

I will say this, if things don't change, or if my company won't allow me to change them, my desk will be packed and I will not look back. Funny thing is that I know my managers know this, yet they only do what is needed to make sure I come back the next day.

Chris_924s

I have never run across an HR person that has the slightest idea about how to hire for a technical position. Even though they have been given a go-no go filter to establish even the basics of criteria.

SoCal- so true, so true.

SoCal Driver

Chris; I've actually gone to the HR persons cubical and pulled all of the rejected resumes and applications and found employees that were tops! **** off the HR person but I had the owners authority to do it.

BrendanChampion; What are you doing in San Diego? What type of business?

Brian Wilson

You know, i've notice the whole "worker to sandbagger" ratio go up a bit too. I was always taught to work hard... What was everyone else taught??? Whatever it was, it didn't stick. I'd rather not get started about the quality, or should i say lack thereof, of people that we get in the military.

::: Interview :::
"So, you couldn't hack it in college and you want a good paying job that we can't fire you from even if we wanted to? Good, we'll take you. Don't forget, even if you suck at your job you are still guarenteed at least 2 raises a year AND if you stay in long enough you're guarenteed to make it into management just to keep us from looking bad! What's that, of course spamming out emails is part of the job, oh... we can get a waiver for that weight problem of yours. Get as fat as you want!!! Welcome to the military, sign your life away here. Oh, I almost forgot, even though you manage a network with over 10,000 users, you still get payed as much as the cop, the paper pushers, and the other people that stand around and do nothing!"