Airbox intercooler
08-22-2001, 07:07 PM
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Airbox intercooler
I've been able to experience for the first time the actual difference between driving at 1:00 at 100 degress and 7:00 at 76 degrees. You can actually tell a difference (so can the gtech). So why not just cool down the airbox 24/7? I'd put in a seperate battery just to power the thing or something. I was thinking of maybe a real small air conditioner hehehe fit it on the top somehow and run tubes from it all around the airbox unit to blow nice cool air on it ;D. Or heck into it!
08-22-2001, 07:30 PM
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Originally posted by Craig944:
<STRONG>Oh yeah, water
. I hate water! Wait, No i don't! Could I just put a turbo intercooler on my car? Would it cool the air alot?</STRONG>
<STRONG>Oh yeah, water
. I hate water! Wait, No i don't! Could I just put a turbo intercooler on my car? Would it cool the air alot?</STRONG>
The turbo intercooler only cools the air to ambient temperature. Your air is already at ambient temperature.
08-22-2001, 07:35 PM
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The temp makes a big diference for me as well. I have a cone K&N mounted directly on my air meter - no cold air intake. When I am starting it is a bit sluggish wich I think has to do with the fact that cool air is not circulating to the intake. Once I get moving it is better, but in 100+ days in Ft. Worth, TX, it is always suffering. I should devise a shield of some sorts to help keet the heat away. Craig - you are lucky that is is 76 at 7:00 - it is still mid 90's at that time here in FTW.
. Condensate isn't that big an issue, just call it water injection.
08-22-2001, 07:58 PM
#7
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Water Injection: a system that cools the intake charge of an engine via addition of finely atomized H2O. Origonally developed as a method of preventing pre-ignition (knock) in the early days of emission control. Never caught on, but did see some popularity with the hotrod crowd who had a thing for higher compression, and claimed a few extra HP from the cooler air.
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08-23-2001, 04:54 AM
#8
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Water-injection goes back further than that. Came from the same era where turbos were developed - turbocharged planes.
And the benefit of water-injection is relative to the temperature of the air. The hotter the air, the more water you can vaporize, the better the temperature drop.
This really only favors turbocharged cars where the intake air can be 350+ degrees. Then you can dump in some water and cool it down to 250 degrees.
No way you can put water into a NA car at 100 degrees and get 0. You'd hydrolock your car for sure, and just imagine what those ice-cubes would do to your valves!
General rule of thumb is that for every 10-degreesF you can cool the intake-charge, you get 1% more power.
And the benefit of water-injection is relative to the temperature of the air. The hotter the air, the more water you can vaporize, the better the temperature drop.
This really only favors turbocharged cars where the intake air can be 350+ degrees. Then you can dump in some water and cool it down to 250 degrees.
No way you can put water into a NA car at 100 degrees and get 0. You'd hydrolock your car for sure, and just imagine what those ice-cubes would do to your valves!
General rule of thumb is that for every 10-degreesF you can cool the intake-charge, you get 1% more power.
08-23-2001, 05:00 AM
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General rule of thumb is that for every 10-degreesF you can cool the intake-charge, you get 1% more power.
Just picking on you, Craig.
08-23-2001, 11:08 AM
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Originally posted by V8s rule:
<STRONG>and youll get a little better milage if you raise the back end of your car slightly so thats its going down hill all the time.
</STRONG>
<STRONG>and youll get a little better milage if you raise the back end of your car slightly so thats its going down hill all the time.
</STRONG>
Dave
08-23-2001, 12:40 PM
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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by V8s rule:
and youll get a little better milage if you raise the back end of your car slightly so thats its going down hill all the time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually did that to my 951 a while ago. It is nice because in my town, I can coast just about anywhere. I only turn the engine on for powered braking.
Dave
LOL!!
That is the funniest thing I have heard on this list in a long time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by V8s rule:
and youll get a little better milage if you raise the back end of your car slightly so thats its going down hill all the time.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I actually did that to my 951 a while ago. It is nice because in my town, I can coast just about anywhere. I only turn the engine on for powered braking.
Dave
LOL!!
That is the funniest thing I have heard on this list in a long time.
08-24-2002, 06:37 PM
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Actually, water injection goes back farther, back to France in 1860, and a guy named Etiene Lenoir, who developed a two-stroke, one-cylinder engine and the first separate air/gas combustion chamber. Both tactics were employed for a single purpose: Reduce knock.
So, (sorry for the pedantry Danno), it wasn't a turbocharger or supercharger or even WWII that necessitated the water injection, though the war effort helped spur things on a lot. Instead, it was mere compression, on a one-cylinder normally aspirated (the first of it's kind, by the way) engine, and a French guy who wanted to make a new invention work.
The next major step in water injection was by the British, who, having high compression normally aspirated, not turbocharged, Rolls Royce engines, needed a way to take away knock. British aviation mechanics used water injection surreptitiously to give their pilots a lift (sorry for the pun). The idea caught on in America, and shortly thereafter Americans (See Rothrook, Krsek, and Jones, 1942) began testing in earnest. The results of early tests were promising, and in August 1945 the Americans were experimenting with water injection on test engines while playing with timing advance/retard, and fuel economy, and from there on supercharged planes and land craft:
<a href="http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-wr-e-264/naca-wr-e-264.pdf" target="_blank">http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-wr-e-264/naca-wr-e-264.pdf</a>
The question was: How to optimize fuel economy (so the planes can go farther without re-fuelling), optimize performance, and reduce detonation (which increases need for repair) without water cooling the engine (which added to weight and thus affected speed). The cheap, effective solution was water injection.
Still, the researchers knew that alcohol burned cool, so they dumped some of that in a Danno like cocktail of ethyl, methyl alcohols, and water, sprayed in a fine mist into the throttle, and the result was pretty remarkable performance:
Temperature reduction somewhere between around 80 and 125 degrees F, and a whopping knock-limited power increase.
I installed water injection on my car and the resultant intake charge cooling meant I could bump my boost up to 15 PSI from the stock 7 PSI. Later, I removed the water injection for servicing and refinement, and told myself "Don't lay on the boost too much until the system is ready" and, like a bonehead, turned my engine in to shrapnel when I forgot my own resolution. Still, I think it's quite safe.
A friend of mine has a Daytona Lazer Turbo and he runs his on water injection at 18 PSI.
Some guys get all red faced when I talk about coolant injection cause they think water and alcohol will cut the gas and make a weak oil film around the pistons. That's crap. Gas cuts oil better than alcohol does and you don't see people getting riled about gas. The problem I see with our turbocharged cars is the issue of (a) boost onset is not immedidate therefore timing is a problem: When to engage the coolant injection?
1. When the boost rises above 5 PSI?
2. When the throttle gets to a certain point?
3. All the time (Risk of hydrolock)
My system had a 5 PSI switch that turned on a pump. But it truly sucked and was unreliable. If I had to do it again, I'd use boost pressure to turn on the coolant by running a line from the intake to the coolant reservoir. Kits are available for the Porsche 931 at a price of about $100. Don't get a pump, they suck, instead, use boost pressure to charge your water/alcohol injection canister. That'll give a nice stream of coolant and air.
Links below:
Supercharged Miata
<a href="http://www.avatar.com/~kory/h2o-injection.htm" target="_blank">http://www.avatar.com/~kory/h2o-injection.htm</a>
And, they're not just older cars or old US hotrods, they're also F1 and some pretty respectable Euro cars:
<a href="http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/coollinks3/index/race/renaultf1/renault.html" target="_blank">http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/coollinks3/index/race/renaultf1/renault.html</a>
<a href="http://www.autospeed.com/A_0115/page1.html?src=suggestions" target="_blank">http://www.autospeed.com/A_0115/page1.html?src=suggestions</a>
<a href="http://www.f-max.com/ERLH20.htm" target="_blank">http://www.f-max.com/ERLH20.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Factory/9051/silly.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Factory/9051/silly.html</a>
Here's a kit for a normally aspirated or supercharged Vette. I think intake charge temperature, for the air, is measured at the cylinder intake, not at the air box. So I think the analogy about '100 degree' intake charge operating temperature is up for grabs. In the US military reports they measure in an NA engine quite high temperatures. Even NA Vettes or high compression F1 motors have high intake charge temperatures and can benefit from water injection:
<a href="http://www.carrollsupercharging.com/GI.html" target="_blank">http://www.carrollsupercharging.com/GI.html</a>
Water/methanol ADI (Anti Detonation Injection) is still used on Rolls Royce engines like the RB-51, at 500 MPH. It's not old hat, it's quite contemporary.
BTW: The idea of water injecting the air box is flawed seriously. Water droplets, regardless of size, will damage the impeller and rotational ease of a turbocharger at, what, 30,000 RPM's. You're better off placing a NOS type nozzle after the turbocharger and before the throttle body.
So, (sorry for the pedantry Danno), it wasn't a turbocharger or supercharger or even WWII that necessitated the water injection, though the war effort helped spur things on a lot. Instead, it was mere compression, on a one-cylinder normally aspirated (the first of it's kind, by the way) engine, and a French guy who wanted to make a new invention work.
The next major step in water injection was by the British, who, having high compression normally aspirated, not turbocharged, Rolls Royce engines, needed a way to take away knock. British aviation mechanics used water injection surreptitiously to give their pilots a lift (sorry for the pun). The idea caught on in America, and shortly thereafter Americans (See Rothrook, Krsek, and Jones, 1942) began testing in earnest. The results of early tests were promising, and in August 1945 the Americans were experimenting with water injection on test engines while playing with timing advance/retard, and fuel economy, and from there on supercharged planes and land craft:
<a href="http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-wr-e-264/naca-wr-e-264.pdf" target="_blank">http://naca.larc.nasa.gov/reports/1945/naca-wr-e-264/naca-wr-e-264.pdf</a>
The question was: How to optimize fuel economy (so the planes can go farther without re-fuelling), optimize performance, and reduce detonation (which increases need for repair) without water cooling the engine (which added to weight and thus affected speed). The cheap, effective solution was water injection.
Still, the researchers knew that alcohol burned cool, so they dumped some of that in a Danno like cocktail of ethyl, methyl alcohols, and water, sprayed in a fine mist into the throttle, and the result was pretty remarkable performance:
Temperature reduction somewhere between around 80 and 125 degrees F, and a whopping knock-limited power increase.
I installed water injection on my car and the resultant intake charge cooling meant I could bump my boost up to 15 PSI from the stock 7 PSI. Later, I removed the water injection for servicing and refinement, and told myself "Don't lay on the boost too much until the system is ready" and, like a bonehead, turned my engine in to shrapnel when I forgot my own resolution. Still, I think it's quite safe.
A friend of mine has a Daytona Lazer Turbo and he runs his on water injection at 18 PSI.
Some guys get all red faced when I talk about coolant injection cause they think water and alcohol will cut the gas and make a weak oil film around the pistons. That's crap. Gas cuts oil better than alcohol does and you don't see people getting riled about gas. The problem I see with our turbocharged cars is the issue of (a) boost onset is not immedidate therefore timing is a problem: When to engage the coolant injection?
1. When the boost rises above 5 PSI?
2. When the throttle gets to a certain point?
3. All the time (Risk of hydrolock)
My system had a 5 PSI switch that turned on a pump. But it truly sucked and was unreliable. If I had to do it again, I'd use boost pressure to turn on the coolant by running a line from the intake to the coolant reservoir. Kits are available for the Porsche 931 at a price of about $100. Don't get a pump, they suck, instead, use boost pressure to charge your water/alcohol injection canister. That'll give a nice stream of coolant and air.
Links below:
Supercharged Miata
<a href="http://www.avatar.com/~kory/h2o-injection.htm" target="_blank">http://www.avatar.com/~kory/h2o-injection.htm</a>
And, they're not just older cars or old US hotrods, they're also F1 and some pretty respectable Euro cars:
<a href="http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/coollinks3/index/race/renaultf1/renault.html" target="_blank">http://www.aquamist.co.uk/dc/coollinks3/index/race/renaultf1/renault.html</a>
<a href="http://www.autospeed.com/A_0115/page1.html?src=suggestions" target="_blank">http://www.autospeed.com/A_0115/page1.html?src=suggestions</a>
<a href="http://www.f-max.com/ERLH20.htm" target="_blank">http://www.f-max.com/ERLH20.htm</a>
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Factory/9051/silly.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Factory/9051/silly.html</a>
Here's a kit for a normally aspirated or supercharged Vette. I think intake charge temperature, for the air, is measured at the cylinder intake, not at the air box. So I think the analogy about '100 degree' intake charge operating temperature is up for grabs. In the US military reports they measure in an NA engine quite high temperatures. Even NA Vettes or high compression F1 motors have high intake charge temperatures and can benefit from water injection:
<a href="http://www.carrollsupercharging.com/GI.html" target="_blank">http://www.carrollsupercharging.com/GI.html</a>
Water/methanol ADI (Anti Detonation Injection) is still used on Rolls Royce engines like the RB-51, at 500 MPH. It's not old hat, it's quite contemporary.
BTW: The idea of water injecting the air box is flawed seriously. Water droplets, regardless of size, will damage the impeller and rotational ease of a turbocharger at, what, 30,000 RPM's. You're better off placing a NOS type nozzle after the turbocharger and before the throttle body.
08-24-2002, 08:08 PM
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My plan is to have a custom pipe made so i can put my K&N cone filter in the stock intercooler location, I figure it will pull alot cooler air from up there than it does in the engine bay.
Just my one cent...
Hell slap a couple AMAF turbos on that thng and make it howl!!! Maybe dual intercoolers, a pair of superchargers and twin NOS bottles too..I think thats his next step.
Just my one cent...
Hell slap a couple AMAF turbos on that thng and make it howl!!! Maybe dual intercoolers, a pair of superchargers and twin NOS bottles too..I think thats his next step.
08-24-2002, 08:14 PM
#15
This may be way off in left field...at my nightclub and we have a smoke machine that we no longer use (have a Hazer now)
The smoke machine uses a heating element to vaporize the fluid. It comes out of the machine at about 200 degrees F hence it really likes to rise to the top of the club and sit there.
To counter act this I have a "cold flow" unit that sits in front of the fog machine. It has a heat exchanger/radiator looking thing that is hooked into a CO2 tank.
When you trigger the fog machine a solenoid on the cold flow unit opens a valve and the rapid escape of Co2 would super chill the radiator. the fog would be so cool it would sit of the floor. Could something like this work ?
The smoke machine uses a heating element to vaporize the fluid. It comes out of the machine at about 200 degrees F hence it really likes to rise to the top of the club and sit there.
To counter act this I have a "cold flow" unit that sits in front of the fog machine. It has a heat exchanger/radiator looking thing that is hooked into a CO2 tank.
When you trigger the fog machine a solenoid on the cold flow unit opens a valve and the rapid escape of Co2 would super chill the radiator. the fog would be so cool it would sit of the floor. Could something like this work ?