Newbie: S2 Handling Questions
03-18-2009, 10:45 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Newbie: S2 Handling Questions
Hi,
I'm new to the 944 after coming from Alfas and BMWs so forgive my ignorance and a painfully long winded question.
My 1990 S2 is pretty worn in the suspension department, it's all stock (Sachs) nothing fancy. I can't afford to get stuck into the suspension just yet. My problem is that this thing is rather "tight" I'm really surprised by the amount of understeer this thing has and how early it gets to it's limit. I thew on some new tires and played around with the pressures. I dropped the backs to 36 PSI from the placarded 44 and that helped some, but now it feels squirmy with the soft sidewalls (Michelin Pilot Exalto PE2's on stock rims). I've also had an alignment done. I've noticed that '89 and '91 S2's rear tire pressure is 36PSI but the '90 is 44 PSI and I think they all have a 16mm rear swaybar, what's with that? I just want it more neutral until I can throw some money into a decent suspension setup. Would a good short term fix be the 18mm rear bar like on earlier 944's? Any advice will be gratefully accepted.
I'm new to the 944 after coming from Alfas and BMWs so forgive my ignorance and a painfully long winded question.
My 1990 S2 is pretty worn in the suspension department, it's all stock (Sachs) nothing fancy. I can't afford to get stuck into the suspension just yet. My problem is that this thing is rather "tight" I'm really surprised by the amount of understeer this thing has and how early it gets to it's limit. I thew on some new tires and played around with the pressures. I dropped the backs to 36 PSI from the placarded 44 and that helped some, but now it feels squirmy with the soft sidewalls (Michelin Pilot Exalto PE2's on stock rims). I've also had an alignment done. I've noticed that '89 and '91 S2's rear tire pressure is 36PSI but the '90 is 44 PSI and I think they all have a 16mm rear swaybar, what's with that? I just want it more neutral until I can throw some money into a decent suspension setup. Would a good short term fix be the 18mm rear bar like on earlier 944's? Any advice will be gratefully accepted.
03-18-2009, 10:58 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
I'd play with tire pressure until you have more money. Try running a few more psi in the front tires than in the rear, like 44 front 40 rear. If that doesnt work you could buy a used 18 or 19 (m030) rear sway. The 19's are adjustable, but they were originally paired with a 30mm front (your car has a 26.8). So, depending on who you talk to and their preferred suspension setup, a 19 could eliminate the understeer or potentially induce a little oversteer. Btw, it'll feel like a completely different car with some new shocks.
Put in new ball joints and sway bar/control arm bushings when you eventually do the rest of the work, too.
Put in new ball joints and sway bar/control arm bushings when you eventually do the rest of the work, too.
03-18-2009, 11:08 PM
#3
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My '91 has a bit of understeer as well...but I still consider it a pretty neutral car. At the end of last track season it began to feel a bit 'squirmy' as you describe....it turns out the Koni's I had in the rear of the car were shot (they came with the car). New Yellows are being installed as we speak and I get the car back from it's track checkup on Friday. I am looking forward to the different feel.
By the way...I run my street tires at the track right now...they are yokohamas and last season I kept the pressures at recommended settings. I may play a bit this season.
There was a striking difference in feel when Z-man took me for a ride in his S2...he's got full coil-overs with (I think) 400# springs...and I believe he was running slicks....but his car was on rails around the track...WOW.
By the way...I run my street tires at the track right now...they are yokohamas and last season I kept the pressures at recommended settings. I may play a bit this season.
There was a striking difference in feel when Z-man took me for a ride in his S2...he's got full coil-overs with (I think) 400# springs...and I believe he was running slicks....but his car was on rails around the track...WOW.
03-19-2009, 02:28 PM
#4
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for the info guys. I'll follow up on the suggestions and play with things a bit, but ultimately it will need a good freshen up.
I had run Koni's before on other cars and have been really happy with them, no doubt I'll do the same this time. My car is a daily driver but will see a fair bit of the track as well, I was thinking of going somewhere around 250-275 for the rate but I'm not sure, but then if I beef up the front what do I do with the back end? (helpers/coilovers)?
I'd like to get some feedback on what spring rates folks are running, pulling the rear torsion bars, etc. A good set up where shocks, sways, and springs are all working together. Oh, and how sloppy can those rear transaxle mounts get? Mine feels a little "disconnected".
I had run Koni's before on other cars and have been really happy with them, no doubt I'll do the same this time. My car is a daily driver but will see a fair bit of the track as well, I was thinking of going somewhere around 250-275 for the rate but I'm not sure, but then if I beef up the front what do I do with the back end? (helpers/coilovers)?
I'd like to get some feedback on what spring rates folks are running, pulling the rear torsion bars, etc. A good set up where shocks, sways, and springs are all working together. Oh, and how sloppy can those rear transaxle mounts get? Mine feels a little "disconnected".
03-19-2009, 03:22 PM
#5
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
There are several folks on this forum who seriously track their S2's....chadd996, smlporsche (eddie), Z-man and a few others....
Chadd has been building his with regular updates here on the board....search is your friend on the upgrades!
As far as the trans mount, I believe solid mounts are available....
Chadd has been building his with regular updates here on the board....search is your friend on the upgrades!
As far as the trans mount, I believe solid mounts are available....
03-19-2009, 03:42 PM
#6
Thanks for the intro Joe...
PhotoDan, fist off you've come to the right place for info.
In order for us to really help you you have to tell us more about how you're planning on using it. You did mention using it as a daily driver but also getting some track time with it.
What level of track driver are you? (be honest here we're all friends)
How far do you have to commute (i.e. how "comfortable" does the car have to be)
If it will be your primary (and only) car you really don't want to get it too stiff. The basic upgrade will be to go to the "Sports Suspension" option which is called the MO30 option and includes stiffer sways and upgraded struts.
From there it's a slippery slope as I can attest.
One of the easiest things to dial out the understeer is to use wider tires in front. I think the car comes with 205's and many run 225's on the front but check to make sure that your wheels are wide enough. Used wheels are easy to find here. Many track guys run 245's on front.
PS. Chad is basically trying to copy my car except for the 968 motor...
PhotoDan, fist off you've come to the right place for info.
In order for us to really help you you have to tell us more about how you're planning on using it. You did mention using it as a daily driver but also getting some track time with it.
What level of track driver are you? (be honest here we're all friends)
How far do you have to commute (i.e. how "comfortable" does the car have to be)
If it will be your primary (and only) car you really don't want to get it too stiff. The basic upgrade will be to go to the "Sports Suspension" option which is called the MO30 option and includes stiffer sways and upgraded struts.
From there it's a slippery slope as I can attest.
One of the easiest things to dial out the understeer is to use wider tires in front. I think the car comes with 205's and many run 225's on the front but check to make sure that your wheels are wide enough. Used wheels are easy to find here. Many track guys run 245's on front.
PS. Chad is basically trying to copy my car except for the 968 motor...
03-19-2009, 06:46 PM
#7
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Much appreciated!
My track time is somewhat limited and it's been a while. I know enough to be dangerous! But I'm now in the position to get back into some driving after quite a few years, but I feel I need to start from scratch. (I think my wife's insistence may have something to do with that too!)
I do between 300 to 400 miles a week. (I'm a newspaper photographer) I don't mind an overly stiff ride as long as it's not ridiculous and having the back end hopping around on every pothole.
And it's my only car.
Are 245's OK on the 7" rim? I'm running 205's F/ 225's R. I have a set of 17" cup's 8" and 9" that came with the car but I purchased some phone dials which I thought would be much better for daily driving. The stock wheels certainly livened the car up and made it feel more fun.
The understeer and handling is only a problem at higher speeds. I guess I'm a little frustrated when I can get through the same corners in my wife's E30 10-15 mph quicker (and a lot easier) and not feeling like I'm going to die. The suspension on my car is "floaty" at speed which makes it feel a bit of a handful at times. Assuming I put on a set of Koni's would the M030 sways work with the stock spring rate? But then I feel I would like something a bit stiffer for the track. What would you suggest a good compromise?
Looks like my own slippery slope has started.
My track time is somewhat limited and it's been a while. I know enough to be dangerous! But I'm now in the position to get back into some driving after quite a few years, but I feel I need to start from scratch. (I think my wife's insistence may have something to do with that too!)
I do between 300 to 400 miles a week. (I'm a newspaper photographer) I don't mind an overly stiff ride as long as it's not ridiculous and having the back end hopping around on every pothole.
And it's my only car.
Are 245's OK on the 7" rim? I'm running 205's F/ 225's R. I have a set of 17" cup's 8" and 9" that came with the car but I purchased some phone dials which I thought would be much better for daily driving. The stock wheels certainly livened the car up and made it feel more fun.
The understeer and handling is only a problem at higher speeds. I guess I'm a little frustrated when I can get through the same corners in my wife's E30 10-15 mph quicker (and a lot easier) and not feeling like I'm going to die. The suspension on my car is "floaty" at speed which makes it feel a bit of a handful at times. Assuming I put on a set of Koni's would the M030 sways work with the stock spring rate? But then I feel I would like something a bit stiffer for the track. What would you suggest a good compromise?
Looks like my own slippery slope has started.
Trending Topics
03-19-2009, 06:48 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mass
Posts: 351
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As for solid mounting the drive line, there is rubber in there for a reason. You take too much out and you will start getting metal fatigue and case failures. Definitely not for a Daily driver.
I have been taking it gradual. Stock suspension, OE struts/shocks, 968 M030 Sways front and rear, Front sway bar mount brace, short shift. 8 inch rims all around with 245/45-16's. Hajny harness/roll bar, 6pt harness, Al race seats w/dual locking sliders.
Car does groceries, autocross and DE duty. I get a lot of dive, squat and float currently.
The MO30 bars made a big difference in roll. Since the rest is stock the bars are now doing double duty of roll and spring under transverse load. The front sway bar brackets will now see a considerably heavier loading so it is advisable to replace all front brackets, bracket mounts and drop links along with bushing when new bars are added. The bracket are a mere L bracket with the short part of the L attaching to the body. They will quickly fatigue and fail at the mounting bolts. (been there) Get a stiffening bracket that will connect the sway bar to cross member and triangulate mount.
Equal tires at all four corners adds more grip up front and improves understeer. Not to mention that it allows for better tire rotation and a longer ware life. Tire pressures I find even all around to a 2-3lb stagger front to rear to work best with 245's. i.e. 37/39
A good alignment will go a long way to making it more neutral. I am running: camber -1.7 front -1.3 rear. Slight toe in front and rear.
Currently looking to go LSD.
Springs/Torsion bars vs. Coil over. Go one or the other the mix can get tricky on the track at the limits. The coil over is quicker to do and provides easier tuning but can have mounting stress issues. The spring/torsion bar setup is fussier to get right the first time. Once correct is it is set and forget. And if you plan to do racing the different setups can bump you into uncompetitive classes.
If you notice, I have not said anything about the brakes. They are very good stock on the S2. A good set of pads (PF97's) high quality brake fluid and your good to go.
If you are going to track the car, safety equipment should be high on the list before other upgrades. Seats, 6pt harnesses and a heavy harness bar a must. The go fast stuff does nothing for you if it all goes wrong.
The S2 is a great car on the track with great manners. It will embarrass many higher horsepower cars in the corners. You complain about understeer but some of it just a matter that you have to put in a lot of input with the 944. The rack is a bit on the slow side.
Take the time to get to know the car as it is. It offers a lot. Then where to spend the money will be plain.
I have been taking it gradual. Stock suspension, OE struts/shocks, 968 M030 Sways front and rear, Front sway bar mount brace, short shift. 8 inch rims all around with 245/45-16's. Hajny harness/roll bar, 6pt harness, Al race seats w/dual locking sliders.
Car does groceries, autocross and DE duty. I get a lot of dive, squat and float currently.
The MO30 bars made a big difference in roll. Since the rest is stock the bars are now doing double duty of roll and spring under transverse load. The front sway bar brackets will now see a considerably heavier loading so it is advisable to replace all front brackets, bracket mounts and drop links along with bushing when new bars are added. The bracket are a mere L bracket with the short part of the L attaching to the body. They will quickly fatigue and fail at the mounting bolts. (been there) Get a stiffening bracket that will connect the sway bar to cross member and triangulate mount.
Equal tires at all four corners adds more grip up front and improves understeer. Not to mention that it allows for better tire rotation and a longer ware life. Tire pressures I find even all around to a 2-3lb stagger front to rear to work best with 245's. i.e. 37/39
A good alignment will go a long way to making it more neutral. I am running: camber -1.7 front -1.3 rear. Slight toe in front and rear.
Currently looking to go LSD.
Springs/Torsion bars vs. Coil over. Go one or the other the mix can get tricky on the track at the limits. The coil over is quicker to do and provides easier tuning but can have mounting stress issues. The spring/torsion bar setup is fussier to get right the first time. Once correct is it is set and forget. And if you plan to do racing the different setups can bump you into uncompetitive classes.
If you notice, I have not said anything about the brakes. They are very good stock on the S2. A good set of pads (PF97's) high quality brake fluid and your good to go.
If you are going to track the car, safety equipment should be high on the list before other upgrades. Seats, 6pt harnesses and a heavy harness bar a must. The go fast stuff does nothing for you if it all goes wrong.
The S2 is a great car on the track with great manners. It will embarrass many higher horsepower cars in the corners. You complain about understeer but some of it just a matter that you have to put in a lot of input with the 944. The rack is a bit on the slow side.
Take the time to get to know the car as it is. It offers a lot. Then where to spend the money will be plain.
03-20-2009, 09:55 PM
#9
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Neil. I think the last line in your post is the most important of all. The car even in it's current state is obviously way more capable than what I can ever get out of it. I'm really interested in exploring same tire size front and back. I'd just need to get 2 more 8 inch rims which would be a nice straightforward upgrade for the moment.
Daniel
Daniel
03-20-2009, 10:34 PM
#11
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Looking good Chad!
Are you planning a lexan hatch and rear 1/4 windows as well?
Love the cage !
PS - photodan...I got my car back today with new koni yellows in the back...what a huge difference ! I can't wait until I can get it on the track !!!!!!!!!
Are you planning a lexan hatch and rear 1/4 windows as well?
Love the cage !
PS - photodan...I got my car back today with new koni yellows in the back...what a huge difference ! I can't wait until I can get it on the track !!!!!!!!!
03-20-2009, 10:48 PM
#12
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Joe, thanks for the update on the new Koni's. I think I'll be bolting on some in the near future.
That car looks great. The cage looks very nicely done. What wheel/tire sizes are you planning on running? I really wanted a white S2, to me they seem to look so much better in white. My red one will do fine though.
That car looks great. The cage looks very nicely done. What wheel/tire sizes are you planning on running? I really wanted a white S2, to me they seem to look so much better in white. My red one will do fine though.
03-21-2009, 03:08 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 132
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Let me join the welcoming squad Photodan!!.
Tracking the S2 lets you experience, IMHO, a great balance between good car capability, and tangible reward as you improve driving capability.
I'd agree with the consensus here to go first for tire size upgrades, then experiment with F-R tire pressures to improve balance, at leas at first.
Tracking the S2 lets you experience, IMHO, a great balance between good car capability, and tangible reward as you improve driving capability.
I'd agree with the consensus here to go first for tire size upgrades, then experiment with F-R tire pressures to improve balance, at leas at first.
03-21-2009, 12:47 PM
#15
Advanced
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Posts: 82
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Bob,
I'm really enjoying driving it. I think I'll start looking at some wheels. So most folks are running 245's? What rim width? I've got a set of 17" cup's that came with the car but I'm not sure what to do with them yet, they seem heavy. I want to get the right set and then be done with it, and it sounds like same size on all fours is a proven solution.
I've got some work to do, the tranny needs an overhaul as it's been getting louder since I've purchased the car. Do the left control arm ( I went new with the right one, any thoughts on the rebuild kits?) As a stop-gap I may put a new set of Sachs on the rear to freshen the back up a bit.
No work on the car this weekend. Indy is practicing at Barber's this weekend and tonight an ad agency is shooting a Porsche commercial nearby. Sounds like a decent weekend to me.
I'm really appreciating all the knowledge here. Thanks to all.
Daniel
I'm really enjoying driving it. I think I'll start looking at some wheels. So most folks are running 245's? What rim width? I've got a set of 17" cup's that came with the car but I'm not sure what to do with them yet, they seem heavy. I want to get the right set and then be done with it, and it sounds like same size on all fours is a proven solution.
I've got some work to do, the tranny needs an overhaul as it's been getting louder since I've purchased the car. Do the left control arm ( I went new with the right one, any thoughts on the rebuild kits?) As a stop-gap I may put a new set of Sachs on the rear to freshen the back up a bit.
No work on the car this weekend. Indy is practicing at Barber's this weekend and tonight an ad agency is shooting a Porsche commercial nearby. Sounds like a decent weekend to me.
I'm really appreciating all the knowledge here. Thanks to all.
Daniel