jim968

Uh, Jon.... no flames here... as far as I'm concerned, the owner of a car has the right to do whatever he wishes with it, as long as it's safe.

But unless the 944 you start with is a Turbo or M030, your $4600 300+ hp Porchevy hybrid will have brakes & suspension rated by the factory for about 160 hp Even the 'tame' 216 hp first gen Turbos have upgraded brakes & suspension, compared to the na's.

You're gonna need another couple or three grand + to finish the job. Even then, you're gonna be very marginal for 500hp.... There's more to re-engineering a car than a shoe-horn & an engine adapter plate.....


Jim, "Brakes? What brakes? We don' need no stinkin' brakes! We gots a boat anchor in the hatch!"

Tabor

icat,

Acording to the PCA it takes a Porsche chassie with a Porsche engine and tranmsission mounted in it to be a Porsche.

I tend to agree, but I don't mind Chevy swaps either.

Dave E

How much does a chevy v-8 weigh? does it change the handling balance? What about one of those buick v-6's from the gnx or an aluminum ls1 from a new vette? After driving a 600hp 911 that weighed around 2100 at a de last year my heavily modded 951 seems really slow all of a sudden...(note groan from the better half)

KRK

I was also wandering about doing something along the same lines and sometime you think it would be a lot less trouble MAYBE!!! LOL But what would a turbo or supercharged V6 pontiac or Buick motor be like, It would be lite weight and people are getting some kind of horses out of these motors. and your maintinance cost would drop drasticly. JUST A THOUGHT

deni durrell

i 'll step up and be an obvious dissenter. sure, doing mods are cool, but once again, this tired discussion belongs over on <a href="http://www.battleboard.org/categories.cfm?catid=6" target="_blank">"Battle Boards"</a> where this sort of thing is talked about forever in the "Kraut" and "American beer-battered" car sections (hey wait !! there's even "Spanking stories" Oh boy! S&M with a car fetish!) If you still can't get enough of the Porchevy batardization, go just around the corner to our very own "Lounge" Off Topic section, and <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/scripts/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=28&t=000003" target="_blank">see </a> how "George 911-V8" get his *** kicked up AND down, of course it doesn't help that he has a big mouth. It's EXCELLENT entertainment to had by all! Just ask Lukesilver. Anyways, yawn... people should focus on driving skills *then* maybe adjust or tune the car, depending on the application. ...just sick of hearing about push-rods.


<img src="graemlins/sleep.gif" border="0" alt="[sleep]" />

Bob S. 1984 Silver

Deni:

It is not only about driving skills; I think most of us agree that a lot of an automobile's performance is the driver (to steal from "Over 1g"). However, there is a reliability problem (or problems). I look at the posts. The same problems over and over again. I look at the amount of $$$ spent on trying to get around these problems.

Now I am not disagreeing that keeping a car au natural is a goal in itself, and a noble one. But if the individual desires a high torque understressed engine, he (or she) ain't gonna get it in a 4 cylinder 2.5 liter turbocharged engine.

In addition, the brakes on a 944 N/A are superior to just about any car on the road with 50% or more additional horsepower. That being said, unless the modded car is to be used "all out", the brakes are adequate. If the engine adds no weight to the car, the effort to stop from any given speed is identical. True, additional braking power would be required if high speed and constant braking were the result of racing on a track. However, the probability that any of these cars will see this kind of abuse is remote at best.

I like the idea of a V8 in a 944, although I have no plans to do so. Why? Two reasons. I want a car I can trust anywhere anytime. Second, although I probably would not utilize the added power to its full potential, it would be fun to just know "it's there".

After all, the idea is to have fun, right guys?


Cheers!!

Bob S. (God, I wish I were rich instead of....Never mind....)

Jon-D

Jim those are all excellent points and one's that definately warrant careful attention. I actually planned on the engine swap being one of the last mods I made to my car. I agree with most people in that power should come second to balance. Heaven knows that power without handling and brakes makes for a pretty frightening time (anyone who has really torn into a stock 5.0 Mustang will agree with me). So, I will make sure to upgrade my springs, dampers and brakes before trying to really lay down some torque.

I think it's great to hear so many people chiming in with their enthusiam about this kind of a modification, too. It's good knowing that you're not alone when it comes to American Muscle and German Finesse.

Dave: I'm not sure what a smallblock chevy v8 weighs, but I'm sure it is much heftier than the porsche 4 cylinder lump. One of the recommended upgrades for porchevs is to stick 250# springs in the front to compensate for the extra weight. I'm going to really look into this some more this weekend. When I find the weight for a 350 LT-1 (which is the engine I want to use), I'll post it here. I'm hoping it's not too heavy because I'd hate to detract from such a wonderful handling car by sending it plowing through a curve with massive understeer.

- Jon

944LT1

DON'T DO IT!!! You'll regret it...really you will
<a href="http://www.easyfoto.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=261571&uid=129677" target="_blank">http://www.easyfoto.com/gallery/view?p=999&gid=261571&uid=129677</a>

Bob S. 1984 Silver

Yeah, LT1..I can see you really hate it.......

Bob S.

deni durrell

bob:

[quote] It is not only about driving skills; I think most of us agree that a lot of an automobile's performance is the driver (to steal from "Over1g"). However, there is a reliability problem (or problems). I look at the posts. The same problems over and over again. I look at the amount of $$$ spent on trying to get around these problems. <hr></blockquote>

I agree with you, pretty much. However, I don't think that the reliability problem is as big as it's made out to be. It's more of a "owner" taking care of his/her duties.

True, re: the "underpowered" thing. But importantly, one must look at the the state of technology in the 80s. i would even argue that my car (being a Calif car) has the lowest output of most 944s due to emissions crap. Aren't these the Boxsters of the 80s?

For the reason that we all have different cars, where some have been taken care of (for example, proper maintenance of timing belts, not abusing, etc.,) and others who have had the **** beaten out of them so badly that the car is no longer a viable and relialbe means of transportation - rings true. unfortunately it all comes down to *how well* the car was taken care of by the previous owner. therefore, "reliability" becomes subjective. Sure, we see a lot people with the same problems posting over and over again, but let's not confuse reliabilty with the fact that these cars (like mine) are almost 19 years old, and virtually all built with the same parts, yet unique just like the owner who changes the oil regularly or not.

Some people may disagree, but I don't think that a general "reliablity" issue has anything whatsoever to do with the marque. Age and condition, yes, but not because it's a Porsche 944. I definitely don't agree that a similar aged and purposed american engine is any more reliable than our eninges. unfortunetly there's just too much speculative data to come to a conclusion on that one. i will agree that our cars need to be "tuned" and taken care of more, but that's the trade off. i'll take more work (and $) for a better ride any day, hands down. what's the point if not?

[quote] But if the individual desires a high torque understressed engine, he (or she) ain't gonna get it in a 4 cylinder 2.5 liter turbocharged engine. <hr></blockquote>

not necessarily. there are japanese 4WD (subaru wrx sti, mitsubishi lancer, nissan skyline) cars which are roughly 2.5+ litres and 4 or more cylinders that can be pretty damn torquey (but for different apps), BUT a. these are "modern" times; b. i am assuming you are comparing our little 2.5 l engine to american cars for an american highway (long straight vs. curvey unlimited speed).

I hope i've stayed on topic to what you were saying. I'm just one of those guys who enjoys a "pure" product (for what it's worth of course) - and if i could i would drive a COMPLETE euro spec car if i could get away with it. To me it's about the original "spirit" of the car.

It's important to remember that it's all subjective in the end. I wonder what the europeans think of these ideas of american engines in teutonic guise. how would a push-rod 350 behave on the autobahn? &lt;shrug&gt; i've heard some say that the weight ratio is similar, but i doubt it. if it were, then porchevy conversions would be much more commonplace and acceptable, like the earlier Jaguars with unreliable v12s (?)

anyhoo - now on to figure out why my car won't start (fuel/dme...hmm) ....

highly modded 968 below.

*eurospeed951*

If I were to do one I would get a 924 and gut it. I would replace everything I could with fyberglass or carbon fyber. The glass would be replaced with lexan. I would do a Leda front and rear coilover suspention with big red brakes. For the engine I would use a supercharged LT1 or a supercharged 3.0L. What I would realy like to put in it would be a Viper V10! In a few years I will most likely put a Viper GTS V10 in a lightend Jaguar XJS! ANY large HP engine in a striped 924 with the right suspention will haul ***!

Luke

I, personally, would rather build a 3.3 turbo motor than any V8 out there!

DangerIsland

Here's the patented DangerIsland V8 Development System Hardware Interface Track Test (D V8 'D ****T)

Skip, you can write this up for tech-session, if you'd like.

----- Parts Needed ----
1x 100ft of good strong nylon strap material, or rope. Or 10 rolls of duct tape.
2x tiedown clamps. (not needed if using tape)
3-5x 60lb bags of quick-set concrete.
1x thick blanket (check with the wife first)
1x bottle, **** Creek 100proof Bourbon (optional, for track use only)

---- Procedure ----
1) Place blanket on hood, covering important paint bits, just in front of the windshield.

2) place bags of concrete evenly across hood, trying not to crush the hood TOO badly.

3) strap those ***** down with the line (or tape), wrapping it around the car and clamping it down good and tight (Once again, don't crush anything.) Be careful!!

4) give the whole setup a good shake test to make sure it's nice and tight. Adjust any loose concrete

5) drink one bottle of **** creek bourbon* as fast as possible.

*this step is optional, and is only intended for track use. It should provide you with a sense of the speed that an extra 50-75% increase in horsepower will give you. Everything's faster with a bottle of **** in the tank.

6) get into car. quick, before the **** prevents you from walking.

7) rev that badboy up (notice the increased power already? yeah, that's the bourbon talking, but who cares.)

8) do a redlined clutch-dropping powerlaunch and head for the first turn you can see. (car feels faster, huh? woo!@# this RULES)

9) take the turn like you would normally.

10) try to ignore the understeer, and continue to push through the turn. (good god, this thing is FAST!)

11) as your front end begins to loose it, and head out into la-la land towards that concrete wall, think to yourself "did I really want to mess with the perfect balance of this wonderful car?"
----

Don't drink and drive. duh.
flames can be directed to joe@dangerisland.com

Robby

I think about engine swaps a lot too, like the old GTi & Scirocco 16v's, Corrado G60 & SLC w/engines like the Audi 1.8L and 2.7L V6 TT (Audi S4), RX-7TT, etc. VR6's were cool at first, but are sort of a let down- they only made 172HP & 173TQ (Corrado was 178HP & 177TQ)- they've added like 2HP in the last 10yrs, and are now bragging they're coming out w/a 24v V6 that's supposed to put out almost 210HP- BIG DEAL! The Euro Corrado's were 2.9L vs 2.8L and put out over 190HP 10yrs ago! Our 951's & 968's have a nice chassis that's RWD w/large brakes (or potentially large if not a Turbo S or MO30) and some still have decent LSD's (some 968's even have Torsens). They're just a little too heavy (~3150lbs w/full tank, options, etc). The RX-7TT is ~300lbs lighter, and it's about the same size w/Torsen, etc. That MIGHT be a good engine for a swap, but it still doesn't give the low end..

What I want to know is, where can I find out what some of these engines weigh, or at least find out how they compare w/each other? I remember an article in the late '80's, where someone dropped a V8 in a Mercedes 280SL (a Chevy?)- it put out over 350HP (stock 6cyl was ~180) and REMOVED over 100lbs! BTW, does anyone know how much our engines weigh including the turbo stuff (plumbing, intercooler, etc), or at least if they're relatively heavy or not? They're supposed to be heavier than 968 engines w/all the stuff, and the 968 has a bigger block, so I wonder if a NA 8cyl would really be THAT much heavier(?).

Douglas G.

Hi Guys!

I am a (mostly)lurker who had to jump in here.

I have been reading this thread with much interest because I am in the process of gathering the bits for an LT1 &gt;&gt; 1991 944S2 conversion. After reading some of these threads I see that some folks are a bit hostile to the idea of this, and some are just misinformed.

I have owned a number of 924/944 and I am familiar with their pluses, minuses, and quirks. Also I am a diehard Porsche fanatic. (I didn't say purist)

Personally . . .I think a 951/S2 chassis with a late model fuel injected LT1 installed makes perfect sense. It is the worlds best chassis married to the worlds best powerplant. I have seen a few of the Renegade Hybrids conversions and was impressed. They are very well engineered. The examples I have seen look like factory installs.

A year ago I purchased (some say stole) a 91 S2 with a rod through the block. At first my intentions were to simply replace the 3.0 litre motor with another, possibly a variocam motor. The prices ranged from $2K for a smoker blowing oil out the exhaust (Major $$ Rebuild) to $4700 plus core for one with about 37K miles and no warrantee. Bottom line, whatever motor I purchased I was at the mercy of the seller and what he chose to reveal (or not reveal) to me about the motor being purchased. Being the perfectionist that I am, unless I could hear the motor run and do a leakdown/compression check and see some service records . . . I wouldn't touch it with someone elses 10 foot pole. Of course the other option is to buy a 3.0 litre requiring an overhaul and do it myself. (Also, have you ever noticed that almost every motor in every wrecking yard in the world has "about 67,000 miles on it"??) I have the shop, the tools, and the experience to not be daunted by such a task. The major consideration is the cost and scarcity of some parts, coupled with the somewhat questionable reliability of the dual cam 3.0 litre design. I have no problem staying on top of the service these cars require, In fact it is a sort of therapy for me, I love working on them.

Regarding the weight distribution with the LT1 with aluminum heads. I have conversed with Scott at Renegade numerous times about this issue. I have confirmed what he says in conversations with those who have done the conversion. Essentially, the weight distribution shifts approximately from 51/49 front to rear to aprox 52/48 in the 944. Scott likes to tell of a client down south, Atlanta I believe, that regularly crushes Vipers and Vettes on the track in a 91 S2 with an LT1 pushing about 380-400HP with the windows rolled up and the A/C on!! This weight shift can be partially mitigated by relocating the battery to the rear and deep sixing the pop up headlight assemblies for the 924GT style units.

To close this ramble . . .I thought and wrestled long and hard about this. I realised that I wanted to build a reliable, very high performance, street legal, well balanced (susp/brakes/HP) automoblie that would challenge my track skills and not require a second mortgage on my house. I also believe in walking softly and carrying a big stick. The only giveaway when the car is done will be the 3 inch exhaust tip, the headlights, and the exhaust note.

It was easy . . .

208 HP @ $3K - $5K VS 340 HP @ $3K - $5K

Just my .02 cents

Regards

Doug