Harness Bar/ Cage Options
02-05-2009, 03:14 PM
#16
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if they're not DOT stamped/labeled, then they are not legal.
But i would always choose what i feel is safer, over what the law says that i should use... (like if it is illegal to have a rollbar or cage, i would choose to break that law if i had one....)
(no flaming, now!)
But i would always choose what i feel is safer, over what the law says that i should use... (like if it is illegal to have a rollbar or cage, i would choose to break that law if i had one....)
(no flaming, now!)
02-05-2009, 03:40 PM
#17
rollbars aren't street-illegal. but a harness and a roll cage are not legal...at least in IL. on my RSX, i have the schrothe 4pt harness with antisubmarine mechanism. that's the only DOT legal harness that I'm aware of.
02-05-2009, 05:20 PM
#21
Drifting
Yeah no problem man. As you can see the google program sort of sucks but whatever, it gets the point across, and it's free.
Like I said, the one they made me is really awesome for how much it cost. It bolted right up without any trouble. Painted satin black, it definitely looks better than the chrome BK one if you ask me.
But if you can afford it, a clean rollcage install is always way better.
Like I said, the one they made me is really awesome for how much it cost. It bolted right up without any trouble. Painted satin black, it definitely looks better than the chrome BK one if you ask me.
But if you can afford it, a clean rollcage install is always way better.
02-05-2009, 10:22 PM
#23
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One thing I do not like about Harness bars, and therefore would not recommend them, is they'll probably be fine in a collision where car remain upright, they become downright dangerous in a rollover. If the car goes over, the occupant is locked in an upright position. If the roof collapses a couple of inches (not a lot of room between the roof and the top of your helmet) bad things will happen. Without overhead protection (minimum of a roll bar) I believe you'll be safer with the stock 3pt belt (in a rollover) as it will allow your shoulders and head room for lateral movement to avoid crushing your spine or breaking your neck.
02-05-2009, 11:28 PM
#24
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I too have a Redline bar, but now have a full cage.
Redline is the only harness/rollbar that I've seen for the 944 I would use.
You can get a good deal on a pre formed and cut, you weld it cage from Hanksville. They make a nice product and support in actively, and they race these cars. You can find em on the NASA 944 spec forums.
Redline is the only harness/rollbar that I've seen for the 944 I would use.
You can get a good deal on a pre formed and cut, you weld it cage from Hanksville. They make a nice product and support in actively, and they race these cars. You can find em on the NASA 944 spec forums.
02-09-2009, 11:46 AM
#25
Race Director
One thing I do not like about Harness bars, and therefore would not recommend them, is they'll probably be fine in a collision where car remain upright, they become downright dangerous in a rollover. If the car goes over, the occupant is locked in an upright position. If the roof collapses a couple of inches (not a lot of room between the roof and the top of your helmet) bad things will happen. Without overhead protection (minimum of a roll bar) I believe you'll be safer with the stock 3pt belt (in a rollover) as it will allow your shoulders and head room for lateral movement to avoid crushing your spine or breaking your neck.
If I am in roll over I would rather have a 6pt harnes vs a 3pt even without a roll bar. Now clearly a roll bar is better than not having one, but I don't believe the concern of harness without a roll bar is valid.
Now the bigger issue that drives roll bars is that is very hard to get a good strong harness mount without something that is pretty much a roll bar. Mounting the harness to the rear seat belt points and then wraping over a b-pillar guide bar is just not good for the harness. Therefore the best mounting tends to be to a roll bar or something like the redline roll bar which is not a true roll bar, but pretty darn close. (it lacks being a true roll bar due to mounting to bolt locations and no proper rear support.)
02-09-2009, 12:45 PM
#26
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I don't agree with this at all. The issue of roof collapse is the same with 3pt and a proper harness. If you are in a big roll over where the roof is likely to collapse the primary issue is you flopping around in the car. It is very easy to come out of a 3pt belt and hit the roof with your head. 3pt belts do well for non roll overs and are used in street cars since the balance comfort and safety well.
If I am in roll over I would rather have a 6pt harnes vs a 3pt even without a roll bar.
If I am in roll over I would rather have a 6pt harnes vs a 3pt even without a roll bar.
So the reason why I say this is....About 6 years ago Got Me A Porsha (Kevin that works with you) rolled his car off the side of a mountain in Montana (end over end...then side over side). The roof completely collapsed to the headrest and further to the point of breaking the seat back (I'll have to dig up a picture). While my head bounced off the door frame a bit, had I been in a locked upright position, I can say with 99% certainty, I would have died from a broken neck. Fortunately as the roof collapsed I has enough movement in my upper body for an angle change (naturally) to make room for my head.
I think we're all in agreement that a proper bar/cage is the best way to go.
02-09-2009, 02:42 PM
#27
Race Director
will951:
You say you'll be using your car for track events - do you mean Driver's Ed, Time Trials, or Club racing? What organization will you be running with? Those two questions dictate what type of equipment you need to get.
For Driver's Ed and most Time Trial events - you are ok with your stock seat and 3-point belts. If you want to get a harness, some sanctioning bodies including PCA, will require the proper additional equipment - ie: proper seats with the correct pass-throughs for the shoulder harnesses and sub-belt, as well as an approved rollbar or harness bar. For DE's, I would strongly suggest a rolbar vs. a harness bar, as it will offer additional roll-over protection. Most rollbars are street legal, as far as I know, since the likelyhood of head contact with the bar is minimal.
For club racing, you will probably want a rollcage. The weakest point in our cars (and all cars for that matter), is the section between the A-pillars. A rollbar won't offer any additional protection there, but a rollcage will. That said, while rollcages may be legal on the streets, I wouldn't drive a car equiped with a cage on the street more than occasionally. Even with the proper padding in place, on the streets, you don't wear a helmet, and head to rollcage contact can be very painful!
A couple more notes:
- Most (99%) of aftermarket harnesses are not DOT approved. If you are going to drive your car on the street and track, you need to have the 3-point belts in place as well as your 5/6 point harnesses. But do not use both systems at the same time!!
- Most organizations won't allow aftermarket harnesses with stock seats. Again, check your sanctioning body for details.
- When installing the harnesses, make sure you are mounting them to proper points in the car. A bolt through the sheetmetal on the bottom of the car won't do anything in an accident for you. The mounting points need to be properly reinforced.
- I have a Redline rollbar and am very pleased with it. <-- Just another plug for John.
-Z-man.
You say you'll be using your car for track events - do you mean Driver's Ed, Time Trials, or Club racing? What organization will you be running with? Those two questions dictate what type of equipment you need to get.
For Driver's Ed and most Time Trial events - you are ok with your stock seat and 3-point belts. If you want to get a harness, some sanctioning bodies including PCA, will require the proper additional equipment - ie: proper seats with the correct pass-throughs for the shoulder harnesses and sub-belt, as well as an approved rollbar or harness bar. For DE's, I would strongly suggest a rolbar vs. a harness bar, as it will offer additional roll-over protection. Most rollbars are street legal, as far as I know, since the likelyhood of head contact with the bar is minimal.
For club racing, you will probably want a rollcage. The weakest point in our cars (and all cars for that matter), is the section between the A-pillars. A rollbar won't offer any additional protection there, but a rollcage will. That said, while rollcages may be legal on the streets, I wouldn't drive a car equiped with a cage on the street more than occasionally. Even with the proper padding in place, on the streets, you don't wear a helmet, and head to rollcage contact can be very painful!
A couple more notes:
- Most (99%) of aftermarket harnesses are not DOT approved. If you are going to drive your car on the street and track, you need to have the 3-point belts in place as well as your 5/6 point harnesses. But do not use both systems at the same time!!
- Most organizations won't allow aftermarket harnesses with stock seats. Again, check your sanctioning body for details.
- When installing the harnesses, make sure you are mounting them to proper points in the car. A bolt through the sheetmetal on the bottom of the car won't do anything in an accident for you. The mounting points need to be properly reinforced.
- I have a Redline rollbar and am very pleased with it. <-- Just another plug for John.
-Z-man.
02-10-2009, 01:49 AM
#28
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Thanks for the advice Z-man.
I will be running with my fathers Ferrari team. I need to do my research here.....as I thought it was a fairly open event. Another friend has been out in his Prelude a time or two with no seats etc. Does this mean it is simply an open track event? They do not race in the formal Challenge series, mostly the Ferrari club events.
Well......I do appreciate the input. I will do a lot of research before I go spending money on things that will not be allowed. Seems strange though, that they would allow a 22 year old 3pt seat belt....and not a 4 year old 6pt harness with harness bar......
I will be running with my fathers Ferrari team. I need to do my research here.....as I thought it was a fairly open event. Another friend has been out in his Prelude a time or two with no seats etc. Does this mean it is simply an open track event? They do not race in the formal Challenge series, mostly the Ferrari club events.
Well......I do appreciate the input. I will do a lot of research before I go spending money on things that will not be allowed. Seems strange though, that they would allow a 22 year old 3pt seat belt....and not a 4 year old 6pt harness with harness bar......
02-10-2009, 11:33 AM
#29
Race Director
Thanks for the advice Z-man.
I will be running with my fathers Ferrari team. I need to do my research here.....as I thought it was a fairly open event. Another friend has been out in his Prelude a time or two with no seats etc. Does this mean it is simply an open track event? They do not race in the formal Challenge series, mostly the Ferrari club events.
I will be running with my fathers Ferrari team. I need to do my research here.....as I thought it was a fairly open event. Another friend has been out in his Prelude a time or two with no seats etc. Does this mean it is simply an open track event? They do not race in the formal Challenge series, mostly the Ferrari club events.
Well......I do appreciate the input. I will do a lot of research before I go spending money on things that will not be allowed. Seems strange though, that they would allow a 22 year old 3pt seat belt....and not a 4 year old 6pt harness with harness bar......
In my opinion - I would go attend this event with your car bone stock, if their rules allow that. (You may need to install some safety gear like a fire extinguisher, and you'll have to be wearing a helmet). After that, you'll have a better understanding of what this track drivig stuff is all about, and you'll know what upgrades you'll need.
Also - check out the DE/Track forums here - there's a wealth of info there.
One final warning - this track driving stuff is very, very addcting. Probably worse than crystal meth. So you may want to start saving up some $$ to support it!!
Good luck
-Z-man.
02-10-2009, 01:52 PM
#30
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One thing I do not like about Harness bars, and therefore would not recommend them, is they'll probably be fine in a collision where car remain upright, they become downright dangerous in a rollover. If the car goes over, the occupant is locked in an upright position. If the roof collapses a couple of inches (not a lot of room between the roof and the top of your helmet) bad things will happen. Without overhead protection (minimum of a roll bar) I believe you'll be safer with the stock 3pt belt (in a rollover) as it will allow your shoulders and head room for lateral movement to avoid crushing your spine or breaking your neck.
Don't use harnesses without a roll bar. And don't attach harnesses to a harness guide bar.
I couldn't believe my eyes in a recent GRM issue with the article about "Gutty" the $2000 turbo'd CRX that clearly showed they had used a harness guide bar (actually a rear strut tower brace) as a harness anchor point!
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