S2 3.0 swap into late 8V car
01-14-2003 | 05:07 PM
#16
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From: Mile High
fix your 944 and buy a boat. this way you can throw your money away and still have a car to drive.
if your motor was blown, and you found an S2 motor maybe. but then why not put in a 968 motor like roberto did. what about the bigger (abs too) brakes, stiffer sway bars, etc. nobody will buy your car after it's done, assuming it gets done. not knocking your skills, but look at the unfinished ebay monsters we make fun of here.
i know you are never going to sell the car. thats what i said 20 years ago about the firebird convert im selling, as recently as 6 months ago about the 944 im selling, and 12 years ago about the rx7 convert im selling. i will never sell those cars
if your motor was blown, and you found an S2 motor maybe. but then why not put in a 968 motor like roberto did. what about the bigger (abs too) brakes, stiffer sway bars, etc. nobody will buy your car after it's done, assuming it gets done. not knocking your skills, but look at the unfinished ebay monsters we make fun of here.
i know you are never going to sell the car. thats what i said 20 years ago about the firebird convert im selling, as recently as 6 months ago about the 944 im selling, and 12 years ago about the rx7 convert im selling. i will never sell those cars
01-14-2003 | 05:08 PM
#17
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From: Mile High
fix your 944 and buy a boat. this way you can throw your money away and still have a car to drive.
if your motor was blown, and you found an S2 motor maybe. but then why not put in a 968 motor like roberto did. what about the bigger (abs too) brakes, stiffer sway bars, etc. nobody will buy your car after it's done, assuming it gets done. not knocking your skills, but look at the unfinished ebay monsters we make fun of here.
i know you are never going to sell the car. thats what i said 20 years ago about the firebird convert im selling, as recently as 6 months ago about the 944 im selling, and 12 years ago about the rx7 convert im selling. i will never sell those cars
if your motor was blown, and you found an S2 motor maybe. but then why not put in a 968 motor like roberto did. what about the bigger (abs too) brakes, stiffer sway bars, etc. nobody will buy your car after it's done, assuming it gets done. not knocking your skills, but look at the unfinished ebay monsters we make fun of here.
i know you are never going to sell the car. thats what i said 20 years ago about the firebird convert im selling, as recently as 6 months ago about the 944 im selling, and 12 years ago about the rx7 convert im selling. i will never sell those cars
01-14-2003 | 05:27 PM
#18
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 230
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From: Newporsche Beach, California
Bryan,
I like your idea. Obviously you've thought it through, and have many of the pieces in your possession. The appeal of your approach is that you'll have a sleeper, a conversation piece and a very capable car to boot. In terms of resale value, it's obviously not the way to go, but if you love the car and plan on keeping it for a long time, why not?
As for the weight "increase" of the engine, I'm not so sure. A couple of Porsche books talk about the S2's block being 15 percent lighter than the 2.5's thanks to siamesed cylinder bores and thinner block walls. Now there is an extra camshaft to offset that, but the 2.5's separate cam box atop the cylinder head, with all its associated fasteners, wasn't exactly light. The S2 used a lot less coolant in the block too, to more quickly get up to temperature for emissions purposes. Yes there are 16 valves versus 8, but those valves, springs and tappets are small and light.
As for the air-cleaner setup, it looks as though you can use the S2 airflow meter in the stock location and fit an L-shaped pipe that would put a concial K&N in the recess behind the driver's-side headlight. Might require slight notching of sheet metal here and there.
Incidentally, it's pretty cool how all these engines have a full girdle for the crank's main bearing caps. Tons of cars do today, but Porsche was ahead of its time here (and in lots of other ways!).
Good luck, whatever your decision.
I like your idea. Obviously you've thought it through, and have many of the pieces in your possession. The appeal of your approach is that you'll have a sleeper, a conversation piece and a very capable car to boot. In terms of resale value, it's obviously not the way to go, but if you love the car and plan on keeping it for a long time, why not?
As for the weight "increase" of the engine, I'm not so sure. A couple of Porsche books talk about the S2's block being 15 percent lighter than the 2.5's thanks to siamesed cylinder bores and thinner block walls. Now there is an extra camshaft to offset that, but the 2.5's separate cam box atop the cylinder head, with all its associated fasteners, wasn't exactly light. The S2 used a lot less coolant in the block too, to more quickly get up to temperature for emissions purposes. Yes there are 16 valves versus 8, but those valves, springs and tappets are small and light.
As for the air-cleaner setup, it looks as though you can use the S2 airflow meter in the stock location and fit an L-shaped pipe that would put a concial K&N in the recess behind the driver's-side headlight. Might require slight notching of sheet metal here and there.
Incidentally, it's pretty cool how all these engines have a full girdle for the crank's main bearing caps. Tons of cars do today, but Porsche was ahead of its time here (and in lots of other ways!).
Good luck, whatever your decision.
01-15-2003 | 03:11 AM
#19
Three Wheelin'
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,887
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From: LA, Calif., USA
just go for it. have fun, spend a lot of money (but not too much), and enjoy yourself. forget about trying to rationalize. life is too short, especially to base your decision strictly on financial loss or gain. who cares! we all know that cars in general aren't a great investment with any type of great return (except in pride and experience)... nonetheless, there's always a good bit of data that can be shared with other p-car guys. knowledge is worth it's weight in the end result.
01-15-2003 | 06:02 AM
#21
Racer
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 388
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From: Portland, OR
Roberto put a 968 3.0L in his 88 944 NA. Talk about a sleeper! He has surprised more than a couple of people with that thing... especially that black mid 90's mustang that we ran into on the way back from Cali after Danno's pizza run last year. It's amazing how fast 150 shows up when all your watching is the cars 1+ miles away suddenly appearing in front of you. 
Dan
Dan
01-15-2003 | 06:11 AM
#22
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 402
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From: Burlingame, California
Hey not to get away from your post or anything but I was interested in doing a motor swap as well.. only with a 951 motor. I haven't even started doing the resarch though.. and don't give me that crap about how the brakes and suspension can't hold the power. The brakes and suspension on the n/a are a lot better than many other cars with more power. Plus i think it's more fun to completely overhaul a car, going over every last detail and cleaning and replacing stuff so you know that every possible aspect is perfect. Much better than going out and selling your na and getting an s2 or 951 in my mind.
I'd say go for it... I know what you are looking for is not advice on whether or not to do it (you seem pretty set on it) but whether or not there are any foreseeable problems that might pop up while your doing it.. sorry I cant help in that area but I do wish you good luck :cheers
I'd say go for it... I know what you are looking for is not advice on whether or not to do it (you seem pretty set on it) but whether or not there are any foreseeable problems that might pop up while your doing it.. sorry I cant help in that area but I do wish you good luck :cheers
01-15-2003 | 06:46 AM
#23
Race Director
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,208
Likes: 16
From: The Heart of it All
Bryan,
I say go for it. You already know your car well, and seem to have the mechanical knowhow, so there is no reason to follow the mindless zombie chant that is often heard here "Sell it and buy a 951 (or S2 in this case)".
Two things I might suggest here:
1. If you don't want to chop up your existing nose panel, have you considered buying another one from a parting out n/a and chopping that one up and keeping your old one stored away? They are really cheap (usually $50 or less) and I would think that is much easier than trying to re-invent the intake or switching manifolds.
2. Consider upgrading at least the front brakes to 951 units. I think you will find yourself going a little faster with the extra HP and it would be nice to have a little extra braking power to match the delta in HP. Just some food for thought.
Oh. We want lot's of pictures of before, during, and after.
Tifo
I say go for it. You already know your car well, and seem to have the mechanical knowhow, so there is no reason to follow the mindless zombie chant that is often heard here "Sell it and buy a 951 (or S2 in this case)".
Two things I might suggest here:
1. If you don't want to chop up your existing nose panel, have you considered buying another one from a parting out n/a and chopping that one up and keeping your old one stored away? They are really cheap (usually $50 or less) and I would think that is much easier than trying to re-invent the intake or switching manifolds.
2. Consider upgrading at least the front brakes to 951 units. I think you will find yourself going a little faster with the extra HP and it would be nice to have a little extra braking power to match the delta in HP. Just some food for thought.
Oh. We want lot's of pictures of before, during, and after.
Tifo
01-15-2003 | 10:46 AM
#25
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 10,170
Likes: 1
From: North NJ, USA
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Joe944:
<strong><snip> ... and don't give me that crap about how the brakes and suspension can't hold the power. The brakes and suspension on the n/a are a lot better than many other cars with more power...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I must disagree with you: I have a 944S2 with the 'bigger' 951 brakes, and I'm considering upgrading to 951S or big reds! On the track, I'm getting to the point where brake fade may become an issue this year.
That said, if you compare the brakes on an n/a vs. a 951, you'll see a huge difference: mainly two things: bigger surface area of the rotor, 4 piston calipers.
If you're going to track an n/a with a 951 or 944S2 powerplant, upgrading the brakes is a very good idea. If you're just going to keep it on the street, while a brake upgrade would still be a good idea, you can get away without it, but just barely.
Just my $0.42
-Z-man.
<strong><snip> ... and don't give me that crap about how the brakes and suspension can't hold the power. The brakes and suspension on the n/a are a lot better than many other cars with more power...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I must disagree with you: I have a 944S2 with the 'bigger' 951 brakes, and I'm considering upgrading to 951S or big reds! On the track, I'm getting to the point where brake fade may become an issue this year.
That said, if you compare the brakes on an n/a vs. a 951, you'll see a huge difference: mainly two things: bigger surface area of the rotor, 4 piston calipers.
If you're going to track an n/a with a 951 or 944S2 powerplant, upgrading the brakes is a very good idea. If you're just going to keep it on the street, while a brake upgrade would still be a good idea, you can get away without it, but just barely.
Just my $0.42
-Z-man.
