So I'm trying to come up with a good reason not to do this. The allure of 208hp with the 8V car's lighter weight and shorter gears is very seductive. So far I don't see any serious "gotchas" on the horizon that would make this a tough swap. Except for one.

My only requirement is that I don't hack up my car for the swap. So I don't really want to use the S2 nose panel mounted air filter system. I'd like to use the S intake system that mounts up to existing underhood locations.

Does anyone know if the S intake manifold will bolt onto the S2 head, or if there's a convenient point to merge the S2 intake into the S intake and allow me to skip installing the S2 airbox in the nose?

Bryan

 

When all is said and done, you're probably better off with getting a complete S2. The weight difference isn't THAT much: an '83 944 weighs 2675lbs vs. an S2 weighing in at 2857 lbs.
It's just not worth the hassle of getting a 0-60 time of 0.05 sec. faster.

And don't forget: by the time you factor in the heavier engine, bigger brakes, extrnal oil cooler...etc., you're probably not even 100lbs lighter than a regular 944S2! Loose the space tires (one in the back, and one around the belly!) and you're at the same weight with a regular 944S2!

Just my $0.42.
-Z.

 

Double post -- see new one below
VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV

 

Roberto in AZ has a 3.0L (don't recall if it was S2 or 968) engine in his NA. Quite a nice installation, very much the sleeper.

 

i say go for it. Looking for a nice used S2 isn't cheap, plus you never know what you are getting. You already know your 944, the problems in it, what youve already changed and so on. An S2 engine shouldn't run you more than 2000-2500. Just use a cone filter or something for the intake, i''m pretty sure it'll fit, but then again i'm not too fimiliar with S2s

 

Bryan,

For what it's worth, I have 944S headers, airfilter, DME, etc. that I'm selling. Drop me an email at matt.marks@nextel.com if you decide to go through with this.

Matt

 

Don't forget to include the engine electrical harness and the DME brain. You will have to splice in a few wires to the DME connector from your existing car as the plug on the DME is different. I think the tach will work but I'm not sure.

Then there is the idle control valve and the interface module for the coil.

The flywheel and torq tube has to be used too. Slightly different flywheel that changes the TO bearing release geometry. And the flywheel has a special set of teeth on it just for the single speed/reference sensor.

Might as well throw in all the vacuum lines too.

Other than these few measly items I would just find a S2 that has a blown engine and go from there.

 

To flesh this out a little more, here are the reasons for doing it:

- I've already gone through my 8V 944 pretty much from stem to stern. Suspension, brakes (stock 8V brakes shall be used for this), exhaust, weatherstrips and seals, wheel bearings, wheels, tires, etc etc etc. The car is amazingly nice now, yet worth what - maybe $2000 to the right buyer? I'm way better off keeping it.

- For a complex set of reasons I have a mint S2 cat/downpipe assembly in my garage.

- The '88 8V car uses the same rear exhaust section as the S2 (has small triangular resonator) so I have the complete exhaust (everything after the manifolds) already.

- My '88 8V car is a Euro version with AC delete, sunroof delete, manual cloth seats, Euro bumpers, etc. I estimate it weighs about 150 lbs less than a regular 8V car. And a regular 8V car weighs a couple hundred less than a loaded (which they all were) S2.

- Ignoring the weight difference, the 8V car has shorter gears, and the S2 engine is 208hp vs the stock 8V 160hp. We're talking almost +60hp on top of shorter gears. That spells zoooooooom.

- I'm more than comfortable with all the technical aspects of the swap - harnesses, etc.

- My 8V car needs a clutch, plus the oil pump sleeve is leaking oil, the lower balance shaft seal is also leaking oil, and there are a couple other issues. So just keeping the 8V means quite a bit of work.

- All the accessories will swap right over. I already checked this - the only unknown is my AC deleted alternator bracket working on the S2 engine.

It comes down to the fact that the S2 nose intake requires some sheet metal to be cut out of the nose and I just have a "thing" about this. No cutting up of the car shall occur.

Bryan

 

Don't forget the flywheel, bell housing and torq tube as the one on the 8 valve will not work. See my post.

I don't see having a few exhaust pieces as a justification for an engine swap. If you want a sleeper you can punch the 8 valve out to 3L as you imply you have to rebuild it anyway.

 

True, the exhaust isn't a good reason by itself, it's just a convenience.

The S2 engine would have to come with the bellhousing, flywheel, clutch, harness, DME, exhaust headers, and intake. Plus that secondary ignition harness. But sans exhaust and accessories. I think the 8V radiator will be OK but most of the cooling hoses are different. And I think the heater control valve moved up near the water pump.

Good call on the torque tube though. I'll have to check into the torque tube more. Excellence swapped a S2 engine into an S withough changing the torque tube. And I thought the torque tube and trans were the same 8V vs S.

Bryan

 

Think both the "S" models have the same torq tube. The flywheel is the same as this is what triggers the single speed/reference sensor and is what changes the location of the clutch just a bit.

Now this does not mean that the two sensor bell housing will not work if one of the sensors lines up with the triggers on the flywheel and the clutch disk splines and movement is in the same location. If one were handy with a tig you could modify the two sensor bracket to a single sensor at the right location.

When I was asking around about six months ago if certain torq tubes would fit my 83 I was told over and over again that most will up to 89 but not the "S" models.

It would still be a better deal mechanically to just put in a 3 liter block and keep the 8 valves. Or rebuild what you have into a 3 liter. This is what I would do before ever considering an "S" model engine with all of it's cam chain problems.

 

When my mechanic friend and I were taking my S2 for a test drive (PPI) my mechanic made the an analogy between the 944 and S2 and his mercur XR4ti.

He bought the XR4 for 2k, invested over 10k in a better turbo, brembos, higher pressure injectors, and the list goes on. end result is a lot of time, over 12k invested and a car worth 3k.

we looked at an early 85 944 with a clock that said 45k, but was more like 145k and ready for a lot. He said if i got the car for free, and did everything to make it like the S2 I would have something like 15k in the car, and still have a 4k car.

you can take your loss now or you can take it later. if you take it now you will soon be driving a balanced, properly put together car. if you take your loss later you will invest a lot of time making a 64 muscle car with lots of motor and little suspension or brakes. sell the 944 and buy a clean S2 (like mine)

 

Not trying to be a nay-sayer here, but, to address your reasons:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Bryan:
<strong>To flesh this out a little more, here are the reasons for doing it:
- I've already gone through my 8V 944 pretty much from stem to stern. Suspension, brakes (stock 8V brakes shall be used for this), exhaust, weatherstrips and seals, wheel bearings, wheels, tires, etc etc etc. The car is amazingly nice now, yet worth what - maybe $2000 to the right buyer? I'm way better off keeping it.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Ok, you have a clean 944. Why tear it up now?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>
- For a complex set of reasons I have a mint S2 cat/downpipe assembly in my garage.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Sell it on ebay, so you can fix your clutch! (See below). I have a 968 M030 rear swaybar on my car, as well as 968 wheels: should I now swap in a 968 engine?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>
- My '88 8V car is a Euro version with AC delete, sunroof delete, manual cloth seats, Euro bumpers, etc. I estimate it weighs about 150 lbs less than a regular 8V car. And a regular 8V car weighs a couple hundred less than a loaded (which they all were) S2. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">By the time you add in the heavier engine, bell housing & torque tube (I'm assuming the S2 bell housing and torque tube are heavier) AC unit...etc. you'll be pretty close to the weight of a 944S2: so your weight savings are out the door! Oh, and you should really upgrade the brakes too: but that adds even more unsprung weight!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>
- Ignoring the weight difference, the 8V car has shorter gears, and the S2 engine is 208hp vs the stock 8V 160hp. We're talking almost +60hp on top of shorter gears. That spells zoooooooom.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">While the gearing is different, it won't be that much of a difference. The 944S2 has shorter gears too (Examples: top of 3rd is 80mph, top of 4th is 120 mph). There probably won't be any noticable difference in the gear ratios: plus you can always swap in a shorter set of gears into an S2: that's a heck of a lot cheaper than what you plan on doing!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>
- I'm more than comfortable with all the technical aspects of the swap - harnesses, etc.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I'm not questioning that: I'm just questioning your judgement: you've got a 944S2 cat/exhaust in your possesion, and that's not even 1/8th of an S2, yet you feel it's a good staring point! (Now, if you had an S2 engine, that's a different story!)
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>
- My 8V car needs a clutch, plus the oil pump sleeve is leaking oil, the lower balance shaft seal is also leaking oil, and there are a couple other issues. So just keeping the 8V means quite a bit of work.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">See above: sell the S2 components you have, and fix the clutch and oil leak!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>
- All the accessories will swap right over. I already checked this - the only unknown is my AC deleted alternator bracket working on the S2 engine. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Again, if your justification for this project is to have a lighter car, it ain't gonna happen, especially if you swap everything over! Then all that is left is the different weight of the chassis and body, which are probably a few pounds apart!
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva"><strong>
It comes down to the fact that the S2 nose intake requires some sheet metal to be cut out of the nose and I just have a "thing" about this. No cutting up of the car shall occur. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Well, you're probably going to have to do more cutting than just the nose: most likely some cutting/fabrication/welding will be necessary to get the job done.

Dude: I'm not trying to slam you: but your premise is:
1. I've got an S2 cat / exhaust, so I might as well build my car into an S2!
2. My car is lighter, so with an S2 engine, it will be an S2 killer!

If those are your main two reasons for this project, then I suggest you abandon your plans. You may be dissappointed in the end.

Now if you said, I'm going to do this for kicks and giggles, and that you just want more power for your N/A, then go ahead.

BTW: in the end, an S2 will be worth more than an NA converted to an S2: just something else to consider.

Not trying to be harsh, just givin' you a reality check.
-Zoltan.

 

Oh, one more thing: my bro-in-law had an MR2 n/a that he swapped a J-spec turbo motor in.
He claimed the car was much, much faster: I noticed it was actually slower. Why? His J-spec engine had a blown turbo, so the engine was actually pulling less hp than his n/a.

Be careful with seat-of-pants dynos! I suggest that you take some stats on your car before you start this project, like 0-60, 1/4 mile, weight, dyno...etc.

-Z.

 

Ok, ignoring for the moment the wisdom of the swap, let's focus on the technical aspects and see if there's anything that puts this swap into the "fuggedaboudit" category.

Exhaust, fuel supply, power steering, alternator, AC (or lack thereof), starter, and cooling system are all taken care of. There's a chance I will need and S or S2 torque tube. That bumps up the price a little, but with 135K on my original, might not be a bad idea anyway.

I re-read the Feb 2001 Excellence article last night where they swap an S2 motor into an S. This reinforced my desire to use the S intake setup which doesn't require removing the nose panel. Ideally, if the S intake manifold bolted up to the S2 head, I'd be in business but I don't know if this is possible. I also am assuming the entire S intake mounts up to existing locations in the engine bay (my car is an '88 8-valve) and doesn't require any mods.

In addition to swapping in the main S2 harness and ECU, I also need to add the special S/S2 ignition harness. Ok, a little more work, fine.

The only other thing I can think of is I would have to use the S throttle cable if I use the S intake. The car doesn't have cruise.

I dunno - I'm still on the fence here.

Bryan