n/a 2.8 stroker
01-20-2009, 11:47 AM
#16
+1 on the VarioCammer 
Seriously, going for engine upgrade on PERFECTLY RUNNING 944 I'd consider stupidity. Not today, not tomorrow but one day a perfect condition original 944's will be hard to find.
Not to mention the extra hassle, when doing ANYTHING major to improve the engine behavior you need _at_least_ S2/951 brakes, all around. If you're looking at bigger performance 928 S4 brakes are minimum.
Then comes the suspension setup.. and so forth.
If my S2's engine hadn't failed I'd be happy to drive with it as it was.. but destiny had another plans.
Seriously, going for engine upgrade on PERFECTLY RUNNING 944 I'd consider stupidity. Not today, not tomorrow but one day a perfect condition original 944's will be hard to find.
Not to mention the extra hassle, when doing ANYTHING major to improve the engine behavior you need _at_least_ S2/951 brakes, all around. If you're looking at bigger performance 928 S4 brakes are minimum.
Then comes the suspension setup.. and so forth.
If my S2's engine hadn't failed I'd be happy to drive with it as it was.. but destiny had another plans.
01-20-2009, 02:39 PM
#17
Nordschleife Master
+1 on the VarioCammer
Seriously, going for engine upgrade on PERFECTLY RUNNING 944 I'd consider stupidity. Not today, not tomorrow but one day a perfect condition original 944's will be hard to find.
Not to mention the extra hassle, when doing ANYTHING major to improve the engine behavior you need _at_least_ S2/951 brakes, all around. If you're looking at bigger performance 928 S4 brakes are minimum.
Then comes the suspension setup.. and so forth.
If my S2's engine hadn't failed I'd be happy to drive with it as it was.. but destiny had another plans.
Seriously, going for engine upgrade on PERFECTLY RUNNING 944 I'd consider stupidity. Not today, not tomorrow but one day a perfect condition original 944's will be hard to find.
Not to mention the extra hassle, when doing ANYTHING major to improve the engine behavior you need _at_least_ S2/951 brakes, all around. If you're looking at bigger performance 928 S4 brakes are minimum.
Then comes the suspension setup.. and so forth.
If my S2's engine hadn't failed I'd be happy to drive with it as it was.. but destiny had another plans.
If it is running, leave it alone internally until you come across a situation that forces you to do all the machine work and buy all the parts anyway, and go the extra step for the upgrades... on a good running stock car, limit the changes to bolt on, unless you are racing it cuz then thar ain't none dem rulz...
01-20-2009, 04:20 PM
#19
Instructor
Keep your engine stock and in great condition! For the modification your are thinking of, the HP per $ (EURO) ratio is very low ! 
Do you really want that extra power ? Probably the best solution is an engine swap, but I think 170 hp are still a great fun to drive.
Do you really want that extra power ? Probably the best solution is an engine swap, but I think 170 hp are still a great fun to drive.
01-20-2009, 06:51 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks to all of you for the suggestions.Now knowing what has to be done i think i will just leave it standard or maybe do some small bolt on things.
I guess the biggest upgrade i could do is to save money for a nice 951 later on.
The car is rock solid,i actually have the courage to say that it's 95% perfect.
ps:apart from having 163hp because it's Row it also "has" NO power steering and NO a/c from factory so it's lighter too but i guess we always want more lol.
I guess the biggest upgrade i could do is to save money for a nice 951 later on.
The car is rock solid,i actually have the courage to say that it's 95% perfect.
ps:apart from having 163hp because it's Row it also "has" NO power steering and NO a/c from factory so it's lighter too but i guess we always want more lol.
01-21-2009, 12:53 AM
#21
Rennlist Member
I generally agree that "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", but someitmes its rewarding to have something different. Or at least, that's my justification for taking apart a 100% functional fuel system and spending a fair chunk of change to replace it with a flashy LR fuel rail and hydraulic lines. I guess I don't always follow "conventional wisdom"...and what follows probably contains little of hte "Rennlist accepted wisdom about the futility of modifying a 944 that's not a turbo"...That being said, I will admit that I did not really factor money into the following analysis. Modifying ANY car properly isn't cheap, and modifying any Porsche DEFINITELY isn't cheap. If you don't think of the expenses as an "investment" but rather an "entertainment expense" and consider the process of making your car better part of the fun.
If you want more power out of a N/A engine, short of an engine swap, I would imagine the fastest way to increase horsepower significantly is to bore and/or stroke - to quote American hot rodders, "there's no replacement for displacement". Everything that makes the 2.8l stroker effective for the turbo helps the N/A. The only difference is that the N/A won't be able to match the turbo's top end. I don't have numbers to back this up, and can't provide part numbers that you would need to do this (see prev posts) BUT I do know that the way to increase an engine's hp and tq is to get more air pumping through it and one surefire way to do that is increase its displacement. Combining that increase with proper tuning and improving airflow into and out of the engine should yield benefits in power, although ultimately your cam profile and timing curve will determine how driveable it is
If you want more hp from your 2.5l engine without rebuilding it, I'd suggest looking into headers and catback, a cam, and a chip. There's not a ton of dyno data out there, but I've heard claims that you can get crank hp up around 180 or 185 hp (or more). Even 185 would be a 20hp bump - not much to turbos, but that is a 12% bump in hp - combine it with some weight shavings and you'll get a noticeably faster car.
Lastly, one other place to look for power gains is simply making sure that your engine is running well. Make sure that your compression numbers are high and consistent, make sure your valves are clean, oil is fresh, plugs, clean, injectors equal, etc etc etc. Oftentimes, with a 20 year old car, you can pick up power just by fixing up your engine with new stock parts.
And I would argue that unless you're going over 200hp, you probably won't need to completely rework the brakes and suspension. Keep in mind, when Porsche made the 944S, it upped hp to 188 without radically changing suspension or brakes.
Hope that little rambling rant helps...to the OP, best of luck with whatever you end up doing with your car, and to everyone else, hopefully this will be a useful addition to the archives.
If you want more power out of a N/A engine, short of an engine swap, I would imagine the fastest way to increase horsepower significantly is to bore and/or stroke - to quote American hot rodders, "there's no replacement for displacement". Everything that makes the 2.8l stroker effective for the turbo helps the N/A. The only difference is that the N/A won't be able to match the turbo's top end. I don't have numbers to back this up, and can't provide part numbers that you would need to do this (see prev posts) BUT I do know that the way to increase an engine's hp and tq is to get more air pumping through it and one surefire way to do that is increase its displacement. Combining that increase with proper tuning and improving airflow into and out of the engine should yield benefits in power, although ultimately your cam profile and timing curve will determine how driveable it is
If you want more hp from your 2.5l engine without rebuilding it, I'd suggest looking into headers and catback, a cam, and a chip. There's not a ton of dyno data out there, but I've heard claims that you can get crank hp up around 180 or 185 hp (or more). Even 185 would be a 20hp bump - not much to turbos, but that is a 12% bump in hp - combine it with some weight shavings and you'll get a noticeably faster car.
Lastly, one other place to look for power gains is simply making sure that your engine is running well. Make sure that your compression numbers are high and consistent, make sure your valves are clean, oil is fresh, plugs, clean, injectors equal, etc etc etc. Oftentimes, with a 20 year old car, you can pick up power just by fixing up your engine with new stock parts.
And I would argue that unless you're going over 200hp, you probably won't need to completely rework the brakes and suspension. Keep in mind, when Porsche made the 944S, it upped hp to 188 without radically changing suspension or brakes.
Hope that little rambling rant helps...to the OP, best of luck with whatever you end up doing with your car, and to everyone else, hopefully this will be a useful addition to the archives.
Last edited by white924s; 01-21-2009 at 01:30 AM.
02-17-2009, 04:51 AM
#22
Not the sharpest tool in the shed
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
All interesting. When it comes to performance enhancements of our cars I don't adhere to the leave it alone mentality, although my car(s) is/are bone stock, there is always the little enhancement devil on one shoulder saying "go ahead, increase the performace envelope" while the leave it alone angel on the other shoulder says "leave it as it came from the factory". With that said if we never gave into our desires for performance we'd all be driving V6 Crown Vics.
So what about the concept of stroking an already significantly large engine - S2 and 968 3.0L to something more substantial. I still think more torque in the lower rpm range generates more useful performance for 97% of daily driving situations. Anyone know of examples of stroked 3.0L cars? Don't mean to divert from the OP. I think the conversation is the same, just the numbers are different. I get the poor ROI on building a stroker, but with the 16v heads it is challenging to think about backgrading (notice I didn't use downgrading) to the 2.5/2.7 turbo engines just to get more hp. Really hope there is some real world experience in this. Seems the entire automotive universe, except ours, are building great, reliable stroked engines.
So what about the concept of stroking an already significantly large engine - S2 and 968 3.0L to something more substantial. I still think more torque in the lower rpm range generates more useful performance for 97% of daily driving situations. Anyone know of examples of stroked 3.0L cars? Don't mean to divert from the OP. I think the conversation is the same, just the numbers are different. I get the poor ROI on building a stroker, but with the 16v heads it is challenging to think about backgrading (notice I didn't use downgrading) to the 2.5/2.7 turbo engines just to get more hp. Really hope there is some real world experience in this. Seems the entire automotive universe, except ours, are building great, reliable stroked engines.
02-17-2009, 05:59 AM
#23
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
As far as I know, the porsche engine block can't have more stroke than 88mm which is the 3.0L crank. If it had more it would hit the sides of the block. I mean maybe you could grind down the block/girdle to squeeze out another mm and order a custom crank but is it worth it for 1mm? Hell no.
If you really want to get that wild with a build though, think outside the box and don't let the porsche block limit you. I've always thought a BMW straight 6 with a turbo would make a nice original bastard car. "The Ultimate Substitute."
If you really want to get that wild with a build though, think outside the box and don't let the porsche block limit you. I've always thought a BMW straight 6 with a turbo would make a nice original bastard car. "The Ultimate Substitute."
