Another Warm 951 question.............perhaps a little different
07-09-2003, 04:45 PM
#1
Geaux Tigers!
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Another Warm 951 question.............perhaps a little different
Started the car Sat. for first time in 2 weeks. Thermo fan switch cut on the high speed fans almost immediately (within 30 seconds) even before the gauge read any temp. That's never happened before. Idled car for 2 minutes and drove down the street for 5 minutes. Gauge read on the third line, the highest it has ever reached. Pulled in the garage and the water level had significantly reduced out of the expansion tank. No apparent leaks or muddy coolant. Fan switch is a year old. Eventually the needle posted 3/4 b/t the 2nd and 3rd mark, where it typically sits on this car. Outside temps were approx. 85 degrees.
1) Switch bad? If so why did the gauge go to a hotter setting than normal? Could be 2 independent happenings but the switch is cheap enough to change no matter what.
2) Waterpump? Doesn't seem logical b/c the coolant was pulled out of the expansion tank.
3) Gauge?
4) Porsche God's pissed b/c I've neglected starting the car for 2 weeks.
5) Don't worry about it until the car stays at the 3rd mark
6) Hmmmmm?
1) Switch bad? If so why did the gauge go to a hotter setting than normal? Could be 2 independent happenings but the switch is cheap enough to change no matter what.
2) Waterpump? Doesn't seem logical b/c the coolant was pulled out of the expansion tank.
3) Gauge?
4) Porsche God's pissed b/c I've neglected starting the car for 2 weeks.
5) Don't worry about it until the car stays at the 3rd mark
6) Hmmmmm?
07-09-2003, 09:45 PM
#2
Race Car
Scott, your statement </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> No apparent leaks or muddy coolant. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">scares me.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Coolant can drain into your oilpan through the external oil cooler adapter o rings so by all means check your oil for contamination and perhaps this would be a good time to change it (age not miles
) so you could sample the oil for coolant mixing. If you had a loss of coolant, it had to go somewhere and since your car is in the garage out of sunlight where a coolant/water mix would more likely evaporate you better look carefully as to where it went.....
Re. the fan....was your A/C button pressed...?
Since that control panel was from a donor I'm sure there could be a malfunction with it that would allow coolant fan engagement and not compressor clutch engagement, so be careful there. I'm pretty sure that if the signal is present to apply the A/C clutch, at least one of the fans will come on reardless of temperature, but I could be wrong..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Terry S.
Coolant can drain into your oilpan through the external oil cooler adapter o rings so by all means check your oil for contamination and perhaps this would be a good time to change it (age not miles
) so you could sample the oil for coolant mixing. If you had a loss of coolant, it had to go somewhere and since your car is in the garage out of sunlight where a coolant/water mix would more likely evaporate you better look carefully as to where it went.....Re. the fan....was your A/C button pressed...?
Since that control panel was from a donor I'm sure there could be a malfunction with it that would allow coolant fan engagement and not compressor clutch engagement, so be careful there. I'm pretty sure that if the signal is present to apply the A/C clutch, at least one of the fans will come on reardless of temperature, but I could be wrong..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Terry S.
07-09-2003, 10:25 PM
#3
Geaux Tigers!
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A/C off. Both fans spinning.
Car is sitting in the garage right now cool as a cucumber. Coolant level isn't as high as it was the last time I looked at it cool (2-3 weeks ago but with non-useage). It was around "Max" last time I looked at it but just above "Min" right now. I'm getting that big UH-OH feeling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
I'll change the oil this weekend and see if anything is different.
If it's the O-rings then changing the lines, that already need to be changed, plus the rings should cure the problem, right?
Car is sitting in the garage right now cool as a cucumber. Coolant level isn't as high as it was the last time I looked at it cool (2-3 weeks ago but with non-useage). It was around "Max" last time I looked at it but just above "Min" right now. I'm getting that big UH-OH feeling. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
I'll change the oil this weekend and see if anything is different.
If it's the O-rings then changing the lines, that already need to be changed, plus the rings should cure the problem, right?
07-09-2003, 10:36 PM
#4
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by ELLSSUU:
<strong>Started the car Sat. for first time in 2 weeks. Thermo fan switch cut on the high speed fans almost immediately (within 30 seconds) even before the gauge read any temp. That's never happened before. Idled car for 2 minutes and drove down the street for 5 minutes. Gauge read on the third line, the highest it has ever reached. Pulled in the garage and the water level had significantly reduced out of the expansion tank. No apparent leaks or muddy coolant. Fan switch is a year old. Eventually the needle posted 3/4 b/t the 2nd and 3rd mark, where it typically sits on this car. Outside temps were approx. 85 degrees.
1) Switch bad? If so why did the gauge go to a hotter setting than normal? Could be 2 independent happenings but the switch is cheap enough to change no matter what.
2) Waterpump? Doesn't seem logical b/c the coolant was pulled out of the expansion tank.
3) Gauge?
4) Porsche God's pissed b/c I've neglected starting the car for 2 weeks.
5) Don't worry about it until the car stays at the 3rd mark
6) Hmmmmm?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I say it's number 4. Have you given your regular offerings to the God?
<img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
But seriously, the coolant must have gone somewhere. What's the oil color like?
<strong>Started the car Sat. for first time in 2 weeks. Thermo fan switch cut on the high speed fans almost immediately (within 30 seconds) even before the gauge read any temp. That's never happened before. Idled car for 2 minutes and drove down the street for 5 minutes. Gauge read on the third line, the highest it has ever reached. Pulled in the garage and the water level had significantly reduced out of the expansion tank. No apparent leaks or muddy coolant. Fan switch is a year old. Eventually the needle posted 3/4 b/t the 2nd and 3rd mark, where it typically sits on this car. Outside temps were approx. 85 degrees.
1) Switch bad? If so why did the gauge go to a hotter setting than normal? Could be 2 independent happenings but the switch is cheap enough to change no matter what.
2) Waterpump? Doesn't seem logical b/c the coolant was pulled out of the expansion tank.
3) Gauge?
4) Porsche God's pissed b/c I've neglected starting the car for 2 weeks.
5) Don't worry about it until the car stays at the 3rd mark
6) Hmmmmm?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I say it's number 4. Have you given your regular offerings to the God?
<img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" />
But seriously, the coolant must have gone somewhere. What's the oil color like?
07-09-2003, 10:51 PM
#6
Race Car
Yes....I have all the necessary parts at the shop, all original Porsche stuff....
You could replace them for me later....
There could be a variance in level from cold-hot also Scott.. Are you saying that the level is different than it was....BOTH at the same temperature....?
If the oil on the stick looks normal (engine run little) you could still have coolant laying on top of the oil. In that case when you drain the oil, you're like "Cool, no coolant", then whoosh coolant comes gushing out after the oil has fallen below level with the drain plug hole....
Fingers crossed.......
TS
You could replace them for me later....
There could be a variance in level from cold-hot also Scott.. Are you saying that the level is different than it was....BOTH at the same temperature....?
If the oil on the stick looks normal (engine run little) you could still have coolant laying on top of the oil. In that case when you drain the oil, you're like "Cool, no coolant", then whoosh coolant comes gushing out after the oil has fallen below level with the drain plug hole....
Fingers crossed.......
TS
07-09-2003, 11:01 PM
#7
Race Car
Yeah Iceshark, you're right, I wouldn't get too worried yet....
Thing is, his car is in a garage and coolant/water mixture doesn't evaporate that well. There should at least be some greenish residue on the shiny cement floor......
The joker in the deck is the WO fans after only 30 seconds of running with the A/C on...coupled *with* the missing (alleged lol) coolant....
Call in Barnaby Jones Scott....;^)
Boy did I just date myself or what....?
TS
Thing is, his car is in a garage and coolant/water mixture doesn't evaporate that well. There should at least be some greenish residue on the shiny cement floor......
The joker in the deck is the WO fans after only 30 seconds of running with the A/C on...coupled *with* the missing (alleged lol) coolant....
Call in Barnaby Jones Scott....;^)
Boy did I just date myself or what....?
TS
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07-09-2003, 11:11 PM
#8
Geaux Tigers!
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Alright, took it out for a spin just now. Dead cold coolent level just above minimum, like it's supposed to be at start up. After spin, 5 minutes coolent level half way b/t min and max about where I'd expect it.
Highspeed fans came on before the gauge registered any temperature, again. Released A/C switch (snowflake) and the fans turned off within seconds. Is that correct, perhaps I just don't understand the inner workings of the car's A/C afterall I never had it before 3 weeks ago?
Got down the street with easy driving, with A/C fan switch depressed and highspeed fans running, and the gauge registered 3rd mark, high IMO. Turned A/C off and the temp gauge dropped approx. 3/16ths of an inch. Not cool but less than the 3rd mark. Hmmmmm, perhaps the grounds are part/wholly the culprit. Dan, aka IceShark, you haunting me 'cause I haven't installed the cables yet?
Checked the oil, on the stick, and it seems clean as a whistle. Less than 500 mile oil changes will do that.
Highspeed fans came on before the gauge registered any temperature, again. Released A/C switch (snowflake) and the fans turned off within seconds. Is that correct, perhaps I just don't understand the inner workings of the car's A/C afterall I never had it before 3 weeks ago?
Got down the street with easy driving, with A/C fan switch depressed and highspeed fans running, and the gauge registered 3rd mark, high IMO. Turned A/C off and the temp gauge dropped approx. 3/16ths of an inch. Not cool but less than the 3rd mark. Hmmmmm, perhaps the grounds are part/wholly the culprit. Dan, aka IceShark, you haunting me 'cause I haven't installed the cables yet?
Checked the oil, on the stick, and it seems clean as a whistle. Less than 500 mile oil changes will do that.
07-09-2003, 11:13 PM
#9
Geaux Tigers!
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Absolutely no coolent on the floor. You are correct about alledged loss of coolent b/c I only went on a 5 minute trip. Perhaps it didn't heat up enough to expand to max but that doesn't answer why the gauge read so high.
At least, I can say that the thermo switch isn't bad. Perhaps the waterpump isn't working efficiently or the thermostat isn't opening fully. If I can get the booger out I'll change it this weekend.
Right now I think we can diagnose a gauge/ground issue, huh?
At least, I can say that the thermo switch isn't bad. Perhaps the waterpump isn't working efficiently or the thermostat isn't opening fully. If I can get the booger out I'll change it this weekend.
Right now I think we can diagnose a gauge/ground issue, huh?
07-09-2003, 11:45 PM
#10
Race Car
Hmmm, just when I thought I had it figured out....
OK, so we agree that there is a difference in level of the expansion tank between cold-hot...
And IYO all seems pretty normal there, so no real noticable coolant loss.
It's the fans I'm not clear on..
When they come on after 30 seconds after initial cold startup and they are running, is the A/C on or off..?
BTW how is it cooling...?
You also stated that the fans go off when you turn off the 'snowflake' switch so the controller is probably ok.
Just to reitterate, the fans WILL come on with A/C activated, regardless of temperature indicated on the gauge.
If you have high speed fans running 30 seconds after startup (cold) with no A/C, then there's a problem with the temperature sender.
Even if the thermostat were frozen shut you could not get coolant to 180 degrees in the block in 30 seconds...
I'm pretty certain the DME would use this sender for 'cold start' richening until closed loop is achieved, so the next logical question is, how does it idle/run on cold startup...?
If the sender were stuck closed, theoretically you'd be in closed loop upon startup and probably lean......
Your higher than what you feel as normal temp range could be a restricted radiator Scott since you've had this problem for a long time and since installing the splitter made no difference at all.... The only way for the water pump to have less than 100% efficientcy would be if the impeller were slipping on the shaft, possible, but unlikely as the condition would get progressively worse until it would be driven less and less by the fit of the shaft.
Terry S.
OK, so we agree that there is a difference in level of the expansion tank between cold-hot...
And IYO all seems pretty normal there, so no real noticable coolant loss.
It's the fans I'm not clear on..
When they come on after 30 seconds after initial cold startup and they are running, is the A/C on or off..?
BTW how is it cooling...?
You also stated that the fans go off when you turn off the 'snowflake' switch so the controller is probably ok.
Just to reitterate, the fans WILL come on with A/C activated, regardless of temperature indicated on the gauge.
If you have high speed fans running 30 seconds after startup (cold) with no A/C, then there's a problem with the temperature sender.
Even if the thermostat were frozen shut you could not get coolant to 180 degrees in the block in 30 seconds...
I'm pretty certain the DME would use this sender for 'cold start' richening until closed loop is achieved, so the next logical question is, how does it idle/run on cold startup...?
If the sender were stuck closed, theoretically you'd be in closed loop upon startup and probably lean......
Your higher than what you feel as normal temp range could be a restricted radiator Scott since you've had this problem for a long time and since installing the splitter made no difference at all.... The only way for the water pump to have less than 100% efficientcy would be if the impeller were slipping on the shaft, possible, but unlikely as the condition would get progressively worse until it would be driven less and less by the fit of the shaft.
Terry S.
07-10-2003, 12:12 AM
#11
Nordschleife Master
Scott, I think you may be on to something about not installing my battery cable kit yet. As noted the fans will come on if you push in that snowflake for A/C. Those fans suck a huge amount of juice and are likely knocking down your voltage pretty good.
I not sure about this but I think the temperature gauge will rise in its reading the lower the voltage. So dropping the voltage with the fans in forced on status would result in a higher temp gauge reading than you actually have.
While don't you try testing without the fans on and see how the temp goes, let the car cool down, push in the snowflake and run the test again. There is no way you are running hotter without the fans than with them on.
I not sure about this but I think the temperature gauge will rise in its reading the lower the voltage. So dropping the voltage with the fans in forced on status would result in a higher temp gauge reading than you actually have.
While don't you try testing without the fans on and see how the temp goes, let the car cool down, push in the snowflake and run the test again. There is no way you are running hotter without the fans than with them on.
07-10-2003, 12:14 AM
#12
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Hmmm, just when I thought I had it figured out....
OK, so we agree that there is a difference in level of the expansion tank between cold-hot...
And IYO all seems pretty normal there, so no real noticable coolant loss.
Agreed
It's the fans I'm not clear on..
When they come on after 30 seconds after initial cold startup and they are running, is the A/C on or off..?
Snowflake on, fan speed switch off
BTW how is it cooling...?
Very nice.
Even if the thermostat were frozen shut you could not get coolant to 180 degrees in the block in 30 seconds...
Car seems to reach the open thermostat temp in about the same time as any other car I've ever had so I think the 'stat is at least opening at the right time. Whether it's fully opening or not I don't know. They truly only open about a quarter of an inch anyway, right?
How does it idle/run on cold startup...?
Normal
Your higher than what you feel as normal temp range could be a restricted radiator Scott since you've had this problem for a long time and since installing the splitter made no difference at all....
Agreed.
OK, so we agree that there is a difference in level of the expansion tank between cold-hot...
And IYO all seems pretty normal there, so no real noticable coolant loss.
Agreed
It's the fans I'm not clear on..
When they come on after 30 seconds after initial cold startup and they are running, is the A/C on or off..?
Snowflake on, fan speed switch off
BTW how is it cooling...?
Very nice.
Even if the thermostat were frozen shut you could not get coolant to 180 degrees in the block in 30 seconds...
Car seems to reach the open thermostat temp in about the same time as any other car I've ever had so I think the 'stat is at least opening at the right time. Whether it's fully opening or not I don't know. They truly only open about a quarter of an inch anyway, right?
How does it idle/run on cold startup...?
Normal
Your higher than what you feel as normal temp range could be a restricted radiator Scott since you've had this problem for a long time and since installing the splitter made no difference at all....
Agreed.