Turbo Cup Sway Bars....anyone know a source/supplier?
12-19-2002, 07:58 PM
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Turbo Cup Sway Bars....anyone know a source/supplier?
Does anyone know where to obtain a new/used Turbo Cup Sway bar kit (30mm front, 21mm 3 way adjustable rear)? They are $850 at Schatz, was wondering if anyone knows somewhere cheaper? Apparently these are only available through Porsche Motorsports Germany? Thanks in Advance!
12-19-2002, 09:44 PM
#3
Nordschleife Master
You can get the 30mm front from Paragon or Suncoast Porsche...
The rear bar, I'm not sure who you can get it from...but many will try to argue that it is the same as the 19mm 3 way adjustable 968 m030 sway. I talked to someone first hand that is quite experienced that has used both the 19mm and the 21mm and said he noticed a difference when he switched from the 19 to the 21.
I'm running the 30 front and the 19 rear, with the rear at the middle adjustment and a relatively aggressive alignment (1.5 deg camber front and rear) and I found this setup to be just about perfect. Very nice and neutral...I'm running the delrin bushings in the rear and the stock rubber ones up front, though I will hopefully change up to the delrin's up front in the next few months.
The rear bar, I'm not sure who you can get it from...but many will try to argue that it is the same as the 19mm 3 way adjustable 968 m030 sway. I talked to someone first hand that is quite experienced that has used both the 19mm and the 21mm and said he noticed a difference when he switched from the 19 to the 21.
I'm running the 30 front and the 19 rear, with the rear at the middle adjustment and a relatively aggressive alignment (1.5 deg camber front and rear) and I found this setup to be just about perfect. Very nice and neutral...I'm running the delrin bushings in the rear and the stock rubber ones up front, though I will hopefully change up to the delrin's up front in the next few months.
12-20-2002, 10:53 AM
#4
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by adrial:
<strong>...I'm running the 30 front and the 19 rear, with the rear at the middle adjustment and a relatively aggressive alignment (1.5 deg camber front and rear) and I found this setup to be just about perfect. Very nice and neutral...I'm running the delrin bushings in the rear and the stock rubber ones up front, though I will hopefully change up to the delrin's up front in the next few months.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How do the delrin bushing compare to the stock rubber ones?
With all the stuff you've done to your car, I'm surprised/impressed you're not at full firm on the bar. Then again, your car has tons more power than mine (944S2), and I suppose on the autox course, the 951S has a greater tendency to have the back end break away. (Yes, I'm running full firm on my 19mm M030 968 rear sway)
I've heard that for street driving the 19mm M030 968 swaybar is adequate. The same applies for autocross and DE events, except for the top drivers who are extracting the most possible out of their cars.
IIRC, the 21mm rear Turbo cup sway bar costs upwards of $300, while the 968 19mm M030 costs about $150.00. That's also a factor here.
-End of my miscellaneous ramblings,
-Z-man.
PS: Adrial: sign up for the mid-winter track luncheon: February 2nd (Sun) at Tracy's Nine Mile House in Little Ferry, NJ. Great opportunity to learn about NNJR's DE/track program! (End shameless plug!)
<strong>...I'm running the 30 front and the 19 rear, with the rear at the middle adjustment and a relatively aggressive alignment (1.5 deg camber front and rear) and I found this setup to be just about perfect. Very nice and neutral...I'm running the delrin bushings in the rear and the stock rubber ones up front, though I will hopefully change up to the delrin's up front in the next few months.</strong><hr></blockquote>
How do the delrin bushing compare to the stock rubber ones?
With all the stuff you've done to your car, I'm surprised/impressed you're not at full firm on the bar. Then again, your car has tons more power than mine (944S2), and I suppose on the autox course, the 951S has a greater tendency to have the back end break away. (Yes, I'm running full firm on my 19mm M030 968 rear sway)
I've heard that for street driving the 19mm M030 968 swaybar is adequate. The same applies for autocross and DE events, except for the top drivers who are extracting the most possible out of their cars.
IIRC, the 21mm rear Turbo cup sway bar costs upwards of $300, while the 968 19mm M030 costs about $150.00. That's also a factor here.
-End of my miscellaneous ramblings,
-Z-man.
PS: Adrial: sign up for the mid-winter track luncheon: February 2nd (Sun) at Tracy's Nine Mile House in Little Ferry, NJ. Great opportunity to learn about NNJR's DE/track program! (End shameless plug!)
12-20-2002, 11:15 AM
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<a href="http://www.schatzmotorsport.com/Merchant2/index.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=78650&Product_Code=SMS34395100&Category_ Code=801" target="_blank">http://www.schatzmotorsport.com/Merchant2/index.mv?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=78650&Product_Code=SMS34395100&Category_ Code=801</a>
Eirik Kvello-Aune
<a href="http://www.diateam.no/porsche" target="_blank">www.diateam.no/porsche</a>
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12-20-2002, 11:29 AM
#6
Nordschleife Master
Zoltan,
The mid winter track event is just a get together and chat type of deal?
Off the pedals the car will sometimes understeer sometimes oversteer, but for the most part I've been playing with the stifness of the front shocks...maybe for the first autox of the next season I'll go up to full stiff and go softer on the front shocks.
Though for my first DE I definetely want to see understeer understeer understeer!
At the last autox (with metro NY region)...there was this one fairly tight U turn that I could come into in 2nd, at fairly low revs (2500 maybe 3k)...floor it halfway through (off boost) and get the tail out a little bit (or A LOT depending on how early I floor it) and then rocket down a huge straight where I ended up at having to lift to prevent from bouncing off the limiter. LOTS of fun
Back to my non-Porsche studies
--adrial, waiting for the 23rd at 11am when I'm done with finals...
The mid winter track event is just a get together and chat type of deal?
Off the pedals the car will sometimes understeer sometimes oversteer, but for the most part I've been playing with the stifness of the front shocks...maybe for the first autox of the next season I'll go up to full stiff and go softer on the front shocks.
Though for my first DE I definetely want to see understeer understeer understeer!
At the last autox (with metro NY region)...there was this one fairly tight U turn that I could come into in 2nd, at fairly low revs (2500 maybe 3k)...floor it halfway through (off boost) and get the tail out a little bit (or A LOT depending on how early I floor it) and then rocket down a huge straight where I ended up at having to lift to prevent from bouncing off the limiter. LOTS of fun
Back to my non-Porsche studies
--adrial, waiting for the 23rd at 11am when I'm done with finals...
12-20-2002, 02:06 PM
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I also use the Delrin bushings on the rear M030 bar - not too much SOTP difference, but you really can understand how it's helping after looking at the form factor. Delrin is about the hardest substance you can get that's not metal and self lubricates (no squeaks - very important for sanity).
I have Delrin for the fronts also, just haven't driven the track with them yet - soon... kinda
The Delrin for the fronts are only available at the ends and drop-links for the later cars (85.5+) - so, steel armed cars with standard end bushing mounts can only use the center bushings... not much of a compromise when you consider the only rubber in that siuation would be the custom bored end piece anyway... unlike the upper/lower drop-link and end bushing of the later cars. Maybe the steel arms will be supported also in the future - if there's enough interest.
By the way, I have experimented quite a bit with my suspension settings to include the rear bar. The one thing that always stands out is with the rear bar full stiff I can more predictably 4-wheel drift the car all_the_time. Each setup is different though, so you really need to feel it out. Adrial's car is a bit heavier and softer, so it may be a world different when driven hard. My track car is 2600lbs, 400# front springs, 30mm rear T-bars, 968 M030 bars, very low, a lot of camber, and smaller-than-stock diameter Kuhmos or Hoosier R-comp tires.
Good Luck!
I have Delrin for the fronts also, just haven't driven the track with them yet - soon... kinda
The Delrin for the fronts are only available at the ends and drop-links for the later cars (85.5+) - so, steel armed cars with standard end bushing mounts can only use the center bushings... not much of a compromise when you consider the only rubber in that siuation would be the custom bored end piece anyway... unlike the upper/lower drop-link and end bushing of the later cars. Maybe the steel arms will be supported also in the future - if there's enough interest.
By the way, I have experimented quite a bit with my suspension settings to include the rear bar. The one thing that always stands out is with the rear bar full stiff I can more predictably 4-wheel drift the car all_the_time. Each setup is different though, so you really need to feel it out. Adrial's car is a bit heavier and softer, so it may be a world different when driven hard. My track car is 2600lbs, 400# front springs, 30mm rear T-bars, 968 M030 bars, very low, a lot of camber, and smaller-than-stock diameter Kuhmos or Hoosier R-comp tires.
Good Luck!
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12-20-2002, 02:21 PM
#8
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by adrial:
<strong>Zoltan,
The mid winter track event is just a get together and chat type of deal?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's a luncheon where newbies to the track can talk with the instructors, the track chair (Dave Novack), and chief stewards, and other track people, like those who run the tech line (yours truly
) tower, pit out, staging...etc.
No track driving will occur at this event!
While you're probably right about not going full firm for your first track event, you'll still want to have a little oversteer dialed in: you're familiar enough with your car (due to autocrossing it so much), that you won't react incorrectly to an oversteering car. But the bottom line: regarless of whatever you do, you'll still see lots of understeer at most of our tracks!) Betcha after your second event or so, you'll get going to full firm!
Hope to see ya in February!
-Z-man.
Now if I can only decide which tires to get for my track wheels...
<strong>Zoltan,
The mid winter track event is just a get together and chat type of deal?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's a luncheon where newbies to the track can talk with the instructors, the track chair (Dave Novack), and chief stewards, and other track people, like those who run the tech line (yours truly
) tower, pit out, staging...etc. No track driving will occur at this event!
While you're probably right about not going full firm for your first track event, you'll still want to have a little oversteer dialed in: you're familiar enough with your car (due to autocrossing it so much), that you won't react incorrectly to an oversteering car. But the bottom line: regarless of whatever you do, you'll still see lots of understeer at most of our tracks!) Betcha after your second event or so, you'll get going to full firm!
Hope to see ya in February!
-Z-man.
Now if I can only decide which tires to get for my track wheels...
12-20-2002, 03:06 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by streckfu's951:
<strong>While on this subject, What's the difference between the 968 Cup sway bars and those from the turbo?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Depending on the year, Turbo bars were 23mm solid or 25.5 to 26.8mm hollow front and 16 or 18mm solid rear. The 968 M030 bars are 30mm hollow front and 19mm 3-way adjustable solid rear.
<strong>While on this subject, What's the difference between the 968 Cup sway bars and those from the turbo?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Depending on the year, Turbo bars were 23mm solid or 25.5 to 26.8mm hollow front and 16 or 18mm solid rear. The 968 M030 bars are 30mm hollow front and 19mm 3-way adjustable solid rear.
12-20-2002, 03:11 PM
#11
[quote]Originally posted by Skip:
<strong>
Depending on the year, Turbo bars were 23mm solid or 25.5 to 26.8mm hollow front and 16 or 18mm solid rear. The 968 M030 bars are 30mm hollow front and 19mm 3-way adjustable solid rear.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I meant to ask about the Turbo cup...Sorry about the typo...
I just researched it and found that the turbo cup bars were 30mm and 21mm while the 968 M030 was 30 and 19. Why would they make the rear smaller on the 968?
TIA
Daniel
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<strong>
Depending on the year, Turbo bars were 23mm solid or 25.5 to 26.8mm hollow front and 16 or 18mm solid rear. The 968 M030 bars are 30mm hollow front and 19mm 3-way adjustable solid rear.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I meant to ask about the Turbo cup...Sorry about the typo...
I just researched it and found that the turbo cup bars were 30mm and 21mm while the 968 M030 was 30 and 19. Why would they make the rear smaller on the 968?
TIA
Daniel
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12-20-2002, 03:25 PM
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I'm not the engineer that made the decision, but I'd guess it went along with the total package concept. The 968 M030 used coil-over helpers on the rear with 25.5mm Torsion bars. The 951 Cup Cars used higher spring rates all around - which would carry through to the sway bars and other parts of the suspension being slightly different to achieve whatever balance they strove for.
If you've got the dime, maybe Kelly-Moss or Andial would be able to answer that question a bit more scientifically.
Skip
If you've got the dime, maybe Kelly-Moss or Andial would be able to answer that question a bit more scientifically.
Skip
12-20-2002, 03:37 PM
#13
[quote]Originally posted by Skip:
<strong>I'm not the engineer that made the decision, but I'd guess it went along with the total package concept. The 968 M030 used coil-over helpers on the rear with 25.5mm Torsion bars. The 951 Cup Cars used higher spring rates all around - which would carry through to the sway bars and other parts of the suspension being slightly different to achieve whatever balance they strove for.
Skip</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the info. With that answered, how were the turbo cup sway bars changed? Did the non S turbo use the 25.5mm bars? Whay I'm asking is because I'm planning a clutch job soon and heard that it was a good time to do the torsion bars as well. I am thinking of increasing the bar size and am unsure of which size is best.
Is there a corresponding spring rate for each size torsion bar? I'm trying to put together a plan so far just need to decide on the details.
When the clutch gets repalced, I plan to change the torsion bars, as already stated, and also want to install the Koni strut inserts with heavier springs (~300lbs) and replace the sway bars. Which torsion bar size would best compliment 300lb front springs?
Thanks for reading and the good feedback.
Daniel
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
<strong>I'm not the engineer that made the decision, but I'd guess it went along with the total package concept. The 968 M030 used coil-over helpers on the rear with 25.5mm Torsion bars. The 951 Cup Cars used higher spring rates all around - which would carry through to the sway bars and other parts of the suspension being slightly different to achieve whatever balance they strove for.
Skip</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the info. With that answered, how were the turbo cup sway bars changed? Did the non S turbo use the 25.5mm bars? Whay I'm asking is because I'm planning a clutch job soon and heard that it was a good time to do the torsion bars as well. I am thinking of increasing the bar size and am unsure of which size is best.
Is there a corresponding spring rate for each size torsion bar? I'm trying to put together a plan so far just need to decide on the details.
When the clutch gets repalced, I plan to change the torsion bars, as already stated, and also want to install the Koni strut inserts with heavier springs (~300lbs) and replace the sway bars. Which torsion bar size would best compliment 300lb front springs?
Thanks for reading and the good feedback.
Daniel
<img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />
12-20-2002, 05:14 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by streckfu's951:
<strong>how were the turbo cup sway bars changed? Did the non S turbo use the 25.5mm bars?<hr></blockquote></strong>
Good question - As far as I know they used the same bars (25.5mm - 951.333.103/4.30 - as indicated by being absent from the Turbo Cup upgrade build sheets supplied by the factory in 1988), but they did use a higher rate helper spring of ~250. If you start a new post here and at the 951 forum with the title "Turbo Cup Rear Suspension?", I bet someone will know for sure - it may even be in the archives. The front springs were the heralded progressive 160-410# type.
[quote]<strong>Why I'm asking is because I'm planning a clutch job soon and heard that it was a good time to do the torsion bars as well. I am thinking of increasing the bar size and am unsure of which size is best.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Doing the torsion bars at the same time as the clutch doesn't really save that much effort as none of the suspension need be removed - maybe the muffler and CV joint are similarly removed, but that's about it.
Your 951 has 25.5mm as stock - a good moderate upgrade would be to 28mm.
[quote]<strong>Is there a corresponding spring rate for each size torsion bar? I'm trying to put together a plan so far just need to decide on the details.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Yes, check out this Tech-Session Info Article: <a href="http://64.226.197.185/Paragon/Info/944_tbar_rate_comparison.htm" target="_blank">944 Spring Rate Comparison</a>
[quote]<strong>Which torsion bar size would best compliment 300lb front springs?<hr></blockquote></strong>
28 or 29mm - depends on if you think coil-overs are in your future.
Good Luck!
<strong>how were the turbo cup sway bars changed? Did the non S turbo use the 25.5mm bars?<hr></blockquote></strong>
Good question - As far as I know they used the same bars (25.5mm - 951.333.103/4.30 - as indicated by being absent from the Turbo Cup upgrade build sheets supplied by the factory in 1988), but they did use a higher rate helper spring of ~250. If you start a new post here and at the 951 forum with the title "Turbo Cup Rear Suspension?", I bet someone will know for sure - it may even be in the archives. The front springs were the heralded progressive 160-410# type.
[quote]<strong>Why I'm asking is because I'm planning a clutch job soon and heard that it was a good time to do the torsion bars as well. I am thinking of increasing the bar size and am unsure of which size is best.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Doing the torsion bars at the same time as the clutch doesn't really save that much effort as none of the suspension need be removed - maybe the muffler and CV joint are similarly removed, but that's about it.
Your 951 has 25.5mm as stock - a good moderate upgrade would be to 28mm.
[quote]<strong>Is there a corresponding spring rate for each size torsion bar? I'm trying to put together a plan so far just need to decide on the details.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Yes, check out this Tech-Session Info Article: <a href="http://64.226.197.185/Paragon/Info/944_tbar_rate_comparison.htm" target="_blank">944 Spring Rate Comparison</a>
[quote]<strong>Which torsion bar size would best compliment 300lb front springs?<hr></blockquote></strong>
28 or 29mm - depends on if you think coil-overs are in your future.
Good Luck!
12-20-2002, 06:03 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by streckfu's951:
<strong> how were the turbo cup sway bars changed? Did the non S turbo use the 25.5mm bars? </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm re-answering this one because I completely missed the mark on your question, but the info I did provide may be helpful also... sheesh.. cheap drugs <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
There may be a bit of confusion as what we are calling the "Turbo Cup". There are basically 5 factory versions of the 944 Turbo - 86 951, 87-88 951, 944 Turbo Cup, 88-89 951S, & 91 951 Cab. The 86 944 Turbo was the first and most basic model. The 87-88 944 Turbo saw some fairly dramatic changes, so I group them separately. Then born of the challenge laid down by the Corvette in late-80's sports car racing, the 944 Turbo Cup was developed. The street version of this car, a further modification of the 87-88 951, was named the 944 Turbo S. The same car a year later was simply the 944 Turbo again - this car would end production for ROW markets in 1991. Available only for ROW markets was the 91 944 Turbo Cabriolet - basically an 89 Turbo spec car with the ASC designed 944S2 convertible roof.
The change in sway bars from Turbo S to Turbo Cup was 26.8mm up to 30mm in front, and 16mm to 21mm 3-way adjustable in back. The 968 equipped with M030 sport suspension got the Turbo Cup front bar (30mm) and a new 19mm 3-way adjustable rear bar, similar in design to the Turbo Cup bar.
Torsion bars on the 86 Turbo were 23.5mm, then the 87-88 were 24.5mm, then the 88-89 Turbo S were 25.5mm - same as the Turbo Cup and 968. (from memory, I may change this later)
Skip
<strong> how were the turbo cup sway bars changed? Did the non S turbo use the 25.5mm bars? </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm re-answering this one because I completely missed the mark on your question, but the info I did provide may be helpful also... sheesh.. cheap drugs <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
There may be a bit of confusion as what we are calling the "Turbo Cup". There are basically 5 factory versions of the 944 Turbo - 86 951, 87-88 951, 944 Turbo Cup, 88-89 951S, & 91 951 Cab. The 86 944 Turbo was the first and most basic model. The 87-88 944 Turbo saw some fairly dramatic changes, so I group them separately. Then born of the challenge laid down by the Corvette in late-80's sports car racing, the 944 Turbo Cup was developed. The street version of this car, a further modification of the 87-88 951, was named the 944 Turbo S. The same car a year later was simply the 944 Turbo again - this car would end production for ROW markets in 1991. Available only for ROW markets was the 91 944 Turbo Cabriolet - basically an 89 Turbo spec car with the ASC designed 944S2 convertible roof.
The change in sway bars from Turbo S to Turbo Cup was 26.8mm up to 30mm in front, and 16mm to 21mm 3-way adjustable in back. The 968 equipped with M030 sport suspension got the Turbo Cup front bar (30mm) and a new 19mm 3-way adjustable rear bar, similar in design to the Turbo Cup bar.
Torsion bars on the 86 Turbo were 23.5mm, then the 87-88 were 24.5mm, then the 88-89 Turbo S were 25.5mm - same as the Turbo Cup and 968. (from memory, I may change this later)
Skip