Water4Gas and save your money at the pump?
07-15-2008, 04:16 PM
#61
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[QUOTE=944J;5608055]does the alternator stop using mechanical energy from the engine just because the battery is charged fully? [QUOTE]
Practically, yes. That's what a voltage regulator does. As the battery becomes fully charged, it senses battery voltage and reduces the load on the alternator. When the battery is fully charged, there is basically no load on the alternator, and it only uses the (very little) mechanical energy it takes to spin the freewheeling pulley and armature.
Practically, yes. That's what a voltage regulator does. As the battery becomes fully charged, it senses battery voltage and reduces the load on the alternator. When the battery is fully charged, there is basically no load on the alternator, and it only uses the (very little) mechanical energy it takes to spin the freewheeling pulley and armature.
07-15-2008, 04:19 PM
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I was hoping this thread would have died 
I hate to argue semantics, but that is not true. A battery stores energy, nothing makes energy. You can convert and store, not create. You can launch a rocket to the moon with a battery, only if you put enough energy into the battery to launch the rocket.I understand what you are trying to say; there is an ineffeciency (wasted energy in the form of electricity generated by the alternator) that could be captured and used to increase the overall efficiency of the system.
But let's look at how this thing actually is suposed to work. You split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The following possibilities exist:
1) you feed the hydrogen and oxygen into the air intake
2) there is some method (not shown) to seperate the H and the O, and:
2a) vent the H, feed the O into the air system
2b) vent the O, feed the H into the air system
Now, how do any of the above reduce the amount of fuel that an engine needs to burn?
Whoah, dood, you just gave us a closed system that operates on the potential energy of water. You don't think there are a ton of batteries in there? I didn't bother looking at the video, because I can levitate myself in a video.
"No, it's just some frost"
I hate to argue semantics, but that is not true. A battery stores energy, nothing makes energy. You can convert and store, not create. You can launch a rocket to the moon with a battery, only if you put enough energy into the battery to launch the rocket.I understand what you are trying to say; there is an ineffeciency (wasted energy in the form of electricity generated by the alternator) that could be captured and used to increase the overall efficiency of the system.
But let's look at how this thing actually is suposed to work. You split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The following possibilities exist:
1) you feed the hydrogen and oxygen into the air intake
2) there is some method (not shown) to seperate the H and the O, and:
2a) vent the H, feed the O into the air system
2b) vent the O, feed the H into the air system
Now, how do any of the above reduce the amount of fuel that an engine needs to burn?
Whoah, dood, you just gave us a closed system that operates on the potential energy of water. You don't think there are a ton of batteries in there? I didn't bother looking at the video, because I can levitate myself in a video.
"No, it's just some frost"
07-15-2008, 05:33 PM
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[QUOTE=moorepower;5608094][QUOTE=944J;5608055]does the alternator stop using mechanical energy from the engine just because the battery is charged fully?
Practically, yes. That's what a voltage regulator does. As the battery becomes fully charged, it senses battery voltage and reduces the load on the alternator. When the battery is fully charged, there is basically no load on the alternator, and it only uses the (very little) mechanical energy it takes to spin the freewheeling pulley and armature.
ive not taken apart an alternator before but as far as i know its a constant pressure on the drivetrain, wether or not its charging the battery or not... also you dont notice much mpg change if you are running your lights at night as compared to driving around during the day... i think you are all exaggerating things just to sound like you are know-it-alls.
i never said it works, i just said that you dont know if it works or not and its possible to put something in the engine that increases efficiency.
Practically, yes. That's what a voltage regulator does. As the battery becomes fully charged, it senses battery voltage and reduces the load on the alternator. When the battery is fully charged, there is basically no load on the alternator, and it only uses the (very little) mechanical energy it takes to spin the freewheeling pulley and armature.
i never said it works, i just said that you dont know if it works or not and its possible to put something in the engine that increases efficiency.
07-15-2008, 05:36 PM
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no i didnt, but oxygen is what helps other things like hydrogen and carbon to burn more rapidly, so don't vent it into the air, you vent it into the combustion chamber.
more info on this:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../chem03291.htm
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-...a-flashlight-/
interesting the last link is how to burn water with 6volts of electricity
edit:
introSODA CAN HYDROGEN GENERATOR
Make Hydrogen On Demand from Activated Aluminum and Water.
This is inspired from Jerry M. Woodall's experiment at Purdue university
The Purdue university team uses aluminum dissolved in gallium.
I use a drop of liquid metal that I bought from eBay and aluminum from a soda can to produce hydrogen from water.
This reaction solves the problem of hydrogen storage for the hydrogen economy. Energy dense activated aluminum acts as the storage medium, liberating hydrogen on demand when exposed to water.
After the exhaustion of the reaction, the resultant aluminum oxide (alumina) is shipped to a power generator plant that reduces it back to aluminum. Since alumina is a suspension in water it can be delivered via pipelines to the power station.
Liquid metal is now available in the UK:
http://www.thecoolingemporium.co.uk/...products_id=37
It is usually listed on the internet as
Coollaboratory LiquidPro Fluessigmetall Waermeleitpaste
http://www.instructables.com/id/SODA...GEN-GENERATOR/
and here they are talking about the same topic, but with less jabs and insults:
http://www.instructables.com/id/HHO-...ar-adaptation/
more info on this:
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../chem03291.htm
http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-...a-flashlight-/
interesting the last link is how to burn water with 6volts of electricity
edit:
Salt water fuel. Sea Battery. Fuel Cell.
This video demonstrates how to build a very simple device that will burn salt water.
Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. Water is comprised of Hydrogen and Oxygen.
When water is decomposed it becomes the perfect fuel, when it burns it becomes water again.
About 1,460 teratonnes of water covers 71% of the Earth's surface.
Just something to really think about next time you fill up your gas tank....
To learn more visit:
http://www.whatmighthappenifi.com/burn.html
This video demonstrates how to build a very simple device that will burn salt water.
Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe. Water is comprised of Hydrogen and Oxygen.
When water is decomposed it becomes the perfect fuel, when it burns it becomes water again.
About 1,460 teratonnes of water covers 71% of the Earth's surface.
Just something to really think about next time you fill up your gas tank....
To learn more visit:
http://www.whatmighthappenifi.com/burn.html
introSODA CAN HYDROGEN GENERATOR
Make Hydrogen On Demand from Activated Aluminum and Water.
This is inspired from Jerry M. Woodall's experiment at Purdue university
The Purdue university team uses aluminum dissolved in gallium.
I use a drop of liquid metal that I bought from eBay and aluminum from a soda can to produce hydrogen from water.
This reaction solves the problem of hydrogen storage for the hydrogen economy. Energy dense activated aluminum acts as the storage medium, liberating hydrogen on demand when exposed to water.
After the exhaustion of the reaction, the resultant aluminum oxide (alumina) is shipped to a power generator plant that reduces it back to aluminum. Since alumina is a suspension in water it can be delivered via pipelines to the power station.
Liquid metal is now available in the UK:
http://www.thecoolingemporium.co.uk/...products_id=37
It is usually listed on the internet as
Coollaboratory LiquidPro Fluessigmetall Waermeleitpaste
http://www.instructables.com/id/SODA...GEN-GENERATOR/
http://www.instructables.com/id/HHO-...ar-adaptation/
Check out his patents...44014777, 5244558, 5628885, 5711865, 6689259, 6977120. There is a lot more on the subject. The fact is that if you zap water with electrical energy (add a pinch of salt) you'll get hydrogen and oxygen gas that combine and burn, The use of a 300amp welder is recommended to get something exciting. The patents appear to be about applying the evolved gas in useful ways like a torch, household heat and for auto fuel addendum( if you are already burning propane)(maybe for gasoline engines too but I haven't found it yet.)
In so far as H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) goes. The pure stuff is really nasty to work with. It was used as fuel for torpedoes in WW2. The stuff was sprayed onto Gallium fins which separates H2O2 info free hydrogen and oxygen then into the combustion chambers of a small radial engine that drove the propeller. Five gallons-of H2O2 was good for about 26 miles at a reported speed of 40 knots. H2O2 was also used as rocket fuel by the Germans in WW2 to power a small plane piloted by a young girl. I think the plane may have been the first to break the sound barrier.
In so far as H2O2 (hydrogen peroxide) goes. The pure stuff is really nasty to work with. It was used as fuel for torpedoes in WW2. The stuff was sprayed onto Gallium fins which separates H2O2 info free hydrogen and oxygen then into the combustion chambers of a small radial engine that drove the propeller. Five gallons-of H2O2 was good for about 26 miles at a reported speed of 40 knots. H2O2 was also used as rocket fuel by the Germans in WW2 to power a small plane piloted by a young girl. I think the plane may have been the first to break the sound barrier.
Last edited by 944J; 07-15-2008 at 05:51 PM.
07-15-2008, 05:48 PM
#66
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the site is http://www.genepax.co.jp/en/
Er... no, I never learned that. Oxygen can combine with other molecules in exothermic reactions.
So, if you choose option 2b, you have a method of separating the H and the O (unmentioned in the sales pitch), are venting highly volatile hydrogen (cough, Hindenburg) somewhere, and injecting extra oxygen into the intake. Is this where your theoretical efficiency comes from?
07-15-2008, 05:57 PM
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its important to know we are talking about hho, not just h
hho is also called brown's gas and has been used for years for fuel
here is an interesting "hho spark plug"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQNrFUnQmnw
hho is also called brown's gas and has been used for years for fuel
here is an interesting "hho spark plug"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQNrFUnQmnw
07-15-2008, 05:58 PM
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07-15-2008, 05:59 PM
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...which means electricity of some type, no? which means a battery or solar panels, or similar external energy source. You will forgive my close-mindedness if I don't believe everything I read in the interwebs
Er... no, I never learned that. Oxygen can combine with other molecules in exothermic reactions.
So, if you choose option 2b, you have a method of separating the H and the O (unmentioned in the sales pitch), are venting highly volatile hydrogen (cough, Hindenburg) somewhere, and injecting extra oxygen into the intake. Is this where your theoretical efficiency comes from?
Er... no, I never learned that. Oxygen can combine with other molecules in exothermic reactions.
So, if you choose option 2b, you have a method of separating the H and the O (unmentioned in the sales pitch), are venting highly volatile hydrogen (cough, Hindenburg) somewhere, and injecting extra oxygen into the intake. Is this where your theoretical efficiency comes from?
this is just like a toyota prius get's 45MPG by being more efficient, just this way is different and can only increase to the amount of energy used by the alternator... READ AGAIN --> ITS NO DIFFERENT THAN A TOYOTA PRIUS.
07-15-2008, 06:06 PM
#71
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Force on the alternator increases as electrical draw increases, due to the opposing magnetic field generated by the current draw.
Conservation of energy.
Conservation of energy.
07-15-2008, 06:15 PM
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07-15-2008, 06:18 PM
#74
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I said it; it's impossible for anyone that has taken physics classes be that ignorant of the concept of entropy.
Much like everyone else with actuall degrees mentioned, a battery that's charged (equal potentials) will not draw current, which in turn will not put load on the alternator. Also on your other point, the 30% to 30.5% efficiency can only be reached if the HH0 device is more than 100% efficient (and violated 2nd law of thermodynamics). If it's less than 100% efficient, you end up with 29.5% efficiency.
Last edited by halik; 07-15-2008 at 06:40 PM.
07-15-2008, 06:18 PM
#75
Race Car
One thing I think about along this thread is the stochiametric fuel ratio. In the case of two stroke motors(my motorcross years) some people would run a rich oil mixture in the gasoline as an attempt to provide more oil and less wear on their motors. This was discouraged as oil is a third ingrediant in the fuel charge and thus effectivly reduces the amount of gas. The result was a "lean" mixture consequently increasing heat and reducing prformance. Some people would run lean oil/gas mixture and achieve better performance and less noticable wear. I'm curious about this effect in such a system proposed here. Would the fuel/air charge be offset by the addition of hydrogen and would our injection systems compensate in an unfavorable way? - Possibley negating the benefit of such a set-up.
I share the general sceptisism here, but fully encourage the development of alternative energy.
I share the general sceptisism here, but fully encourage the development of alternative energy.