brrt50cal

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Fishey:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by UDPride:
<strong>Can I just say this is the funniest thread Ive read on here in two weeks. <img border="0" alt="[ouch]" title="" src="graemlins/c.gif" />

A PT Cruiser is definitely not for me, whether it can outrun Forest Gump or not, but if Perry likes it, thats all that matters. Ive owned a few cars people would probably question me on (Suzuki Samuari ring a bell), but we live and learn or learn to live with em. Some people need grocery getters too. Nothing wrong with that.

About the only sure bet in the autmotive world is a Lexus if you put any credibility in the JD Power stuff. I dont undestand what they are apparently doing from a reliability and customer service standpoint that kicks *** every year but they obviously have a formula down and have stuck to it. Im not a Lexus man or anything but those cars are built to standards that are downright sick. I think Lexus has the highest repeat business in the world. Something like 92% of Lexus owners are on at least their second Lexus.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">HAHAHA, This is a great post I will remember this when I look under the bottom of a lexas to see stuff hanging out everywere. There reliabilty is good but there body quality of there car's (mainly underbody) is horrible. I dont like cheap cars that are made to save money and when I look at a lexus I see **** hanging down!(underbody) I know this is a very once sided view but I HATE LEXUS CARS! Why? There the japs at there best. Lets make cars that look just like other car companys and sell them for less. Even though there body and safty ratings suck (as far as US death fatality's vs car production ratio). Have you ever seen an old lexus? Well let me tell you they are not from what I see very well built veichals but everyone has there opinions.

BTW I CAN't Spell because I dont care...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Well put!

Ag951

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Fishey:
HAHAHA, This is a great post I will remember this when I look under the bottom of a lexas to see stuff hanging out everywere. There reliabilty is good but there body quality of there car's (mainly underbody) is horrible. I dont like cheap cars that are made to save money and when I look at a lexus I see **** hanging down!(underbody) I know this is a very once sided view but I HATE LEXUS CARS! Why? There the japs at there best. Lets make cars that look just like other car companys and sell them for less. Even though there body and safty ratings suck (as far as US death fatality's vs car production ratio). Have you ever seen an old lexus? Well let me tell you they are not from what I see very well built veichals but everyone has there opinions.

BTW I CAN't Spell because I dont care...[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I don't know much about their Lexus subsidiary, but Toyotas are top notch. I have never met a person with a problematic toyota. They're not fast (except the supras), they're not elegant, and they'll never keep up with Porsches on a track (maybe some supras), but their quality puts them at the top.
And you probably haven't seen an old lexus because they didn't start making cars until the early '90s or so. Lexus began as a way to sell high end Toyotas to upper class Americans who were too snobbish to buy the Toyota logo.
Have you seen an ad about a million mile truck that wasn't a toyota?
The only thing that'll out last a toyota is a twinkie.

UDPride

One of my family members is on his fifth Lexus and none of the five have ever been in for non-routine service -- ever. I dont own one but the attention to which they are built is second to none as Ive been in his all through the years back to 91' or whenever they started making them.

Not that I would own one. They arent quite as sporty as BMWs unless you get a GS430. I dont like their looks either except the old SC400 coupes I liked. Nevertheless, the Lexus sales, resale vlaue, and customer retention seem to speak for themselves.

Peckster

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by special tool:
[QB] I have a new $38,000 pickup that pings on 87 - no excuse.

QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">And I thought my twin cam taurus was unusual in doing that. It's a pain, especially when they say you should run regular in it.

I took it back to the dealer while it was still under warranty to complain. They changed the MAF, and no difference. Are we surprised?

Luke

02' mountaineer.

12k miles - both seats and the steering wheel cover had to be replaced due to excessive wear.

14k miles - started blowing blue smoke on start up.

ilikemy944

I'm scared.
Mom has a new sebring, had it 8 months, has over 26,000 miles on it... I actually told her not to buy a ford (haha, whatever, had enough of that) I thought Chrysler would be much better reliability wise. Only problem so far was basically noticed the night we got it home, the radio's lights flickered when the lights were on and seemed to vary depending on electrical load. Dealer replaced radio, so far no problems.

ahofam123

My mom has a '97 Caravan and it's on its third transmission in less than 100k miles. She has also had some minor electrical problems but the main albatross has been the transmission. It's kind of funny sitting in the transmission shop (located right next to a Dodge dealer) and hearing call after call come in in reference to Caravans or Rams.

Fishey

I am not talking about the reliability of the Lexus. I am talking about the "build quality" and from what I have seen japanese cars are 2nd rate. I know that you can say lexus last forever but do they look good doing it? I also think that underbody of a car is the most telling part about the enginering that has gone into the design. when I look under a lexus I see a $20,000 car. Look under a BMW, Porsche and you will notice everything is "tighter" really pushed into the body so that there is less underbody drag. It also is neat and very well put togeather. I look under lexus I see cheap. A exaust system that is made of cheap metal. A underbody that has to many things that hand down like tranny, Driveshaft, Exaust, Suspentionparts etc. Maybe its my obsession with underbody design. I careless about engine's now aday's because everything is becomeing reliable. Hell you want reliable LEXUS is not were you want to go..... I SAY VOLVO!!! Damn things will run forever. (Volvo4life has some with these mileage 230,000 250,000 200,000 or was it 190,000? Ohh yea and the volvo is safer then the lexus. (safest car in the US based on the highway departments information.)

Luke

probably the same gearbox

pete944

Wow, it's amazing how much fire this has drawn. We're all exremely brand loyal. You buy a car, it treats you right, and you stick with it. You buy a car, it treats you bad, and you tell everybody in the world that it's crap. I've had a lot of cars, some were great, some were junk. To each his own.
As far as the PT Cruiser Turbo that started this thread:
Is it fast? Yes, the magazine road tests prove that.
Is it better than a 951? Yes & no. It probably won't hang with one on a track, but it wasn't designed with racing in mind. You can fit a new washing machine or a new gas grill in the back of one and you can't in a 951.
What I'm saying is that we're comparing apples to oranges. Our PT has a 2.4L 150 hp 4 cyl & 4 wheel disc brakes, my 944 has a 2.5L 150 hp 4 cyl & 4 wheel disc brakes. Similar specs but a totally different animal.
When we first bought it I spent some time on the Pt web forums. Some of the folks over there were also putting down any car that wasn't a PT. I thought that was pretty stupid then, and some folks here sound an awful lot like they did.
I'm glad my wife chose the PT over an SUV. I really don't see the purpose in owning one of those behemoths, but that's me. If it fits someone else's lifestyle, why should I care as long as they stay out of the fast lane when I'm in the Porsche.

BartW

you say I only hauled a hundred out of 300,000, well if you want to try statistics then lets start with the fact that I was one of at least 200 transporters that did this job, second that I and the other 200 guys I know of that did it only hauled them back from anywhere east of Illinois so double that for the western states that had a seperate repair facility, add the fact that this was 2 years ago and not that many were yet produced etc... Anyhow if you like it that is all that matters, I think it is a pile of heap and do not wish to own one or for that matter any other Chrysler product (something about seeing 1,000s that were bought back that turns you off towards that company) As far as having a preference for certain makes, I think that because I hauled nearly every model out there and quickly test drove each one that seemed interesting to me gives me some right to have an opinion on cars since I did get to compare them. As a matter of fact sometimes I would get into a car and say to myself "what is this again?? I kind of like it" that never hapenned with a Chrysler.

ViribusUnits

My family had an 82 Ford F-150XLT. Ran it to a little over 100,000 miles before we sold it. Up untill about 3 years ago I'd seen it on the road. I still think the guy uses it like normal, BUT I moved away.

I used to own an 94 F-150XLT. Again, great truck. Only got about 90,000 miles on it. Did take it in for a odd shifting thing under waranty, that I think is caused by it running hot at one time and haveing a bit of varnish built up, but no biggie. Works fine now. My brother drives it.

There are 4 F-350 turbo desile in my family. 2 are approching 200,000 miles, with no real trouble. New set of glow plugs, and a I belive a fuel line.

All the interor electronics and radios are orgional. They all work. Can't complain. All domestic stuff isn't bad, the F series Forcd truck have does well by us. The ford electronic automatic transmittions could use a bit of fine tuneing, they always seem to be a little rough around the edges.

Chyrsler has made some sorry stuff, so have Ford and GM, and Toyota, and Porsche, and just about every other car company out there. They've also made some very nice stuff.

Now to answer the origional question of the thread.

There are many things that can be done with modern tech that were not possible in 87 or 88. There are ways to change the turbo's vanes so it speeds up quicker, makeing more boost at the same point in time. Ways to use comptuers to control the waste gate. There are of course better intercooler designs, water cooled tubos, and methoids to get higher boost levels with out detonation. This includes detonation sensitive engine mannagement units, better head design, higher octane fuel, and the list goes on. Also, smaller turbo can be made to make more boost, if they spin faster. This can be allowed by varable turbo vanes, cooled turbos, better bearings, lubercants, and the like. There is also the varocam, VVT, VVTL, VTEC, and that set of systems to help with proformance. There are high tech materials, like titanium valves, rods, forged pistion, you name it.

When you get right down to it, 15 years of technology ought to be good for something!

Nabeel

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Fishey:
<strong>I am not talking about the reliability of the Lexus. I am talking about the "build quality" and from what I have seen japanese cars are 2nd rate. I know that you can say lexus last forever but do they look good doing it? I also think that underbody of a car is the most telling part about the enginering that has gone into the design. when I look under a lexus I see a $20,000 car. Look under a BMW, Porsche and you will notice everything is "tighter" really pushed into the body so that there is less underbody drag. It also is neat and very well put togeather. I look under lexus I see cheap. A exaust system that is made of cheap metal. A underbody that has to many things that hand down like tranny, Driveshaft, Exaust, Suspentionparts etc. Maybe its my obsession with underbody design. I careless about engine's now aday's because everything is becomeing reliable. Hell you want reliable LEXUS is not were you want to go..... I SAY VOLVO!!! Damn things will run forever. (Volvo4life has some with these mileage 230,000 250,000 200,000 or was it 190,000? Ohh yea and the volvo is safer then the lexus. (safest car in the US based on the highway departments information.)</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I couldn't disagree more about your assessment of Lexus quality. We've had a Lexus in our family for 10 years, and for 2 of those years it was my car. It has been very reliable, more reliable by far than my dad's 2 BMWs or our 3 Audis we've had over the same period of time. Sure, a Lexus is not as fun-to-drive as the European cars, but they will last every bit as long, and on top of that, they will be cheaper to maintain. There is a definite trade-off here. You can buy a Bimmer or Porsche and get a quality, durable car that is fun to drive, or you can buy a Lexus, which is not as entertaining but will be cheaper and likely give fewer problems. I think the 'build quality' of a Lexus is every bit as good as the Europeans. After 10 years, our Lexus is still solid, reliable, and rattle-free. It has never left us stranded on the side of the road even once. Compare that to the multiple times that the Audis, BMWs, and the 944 has left us stranded. I've personally seen Lexuses last well over 200K miles without any major problems. A service tech at the local Lexus dealer told me about a car with 380K miles with the original engine and tranny.

Also, you see a $20K car underneath a Lexus? Obviously you haven't been spending that much time looking under the cars. Go look under a 1990 LS400 and you'll see a very flat and aerodynamic underbody. I have a picture of it in the original LS400 sales brochure. The original LS400 had a drag coefficient of .30, far lower than the contemporary BMW and Mercedes models. When the redesigned '95 model came out, its .28 rating was the lowest of any car on the market at the time. I'm not sure what you're talking about when you see 'parts hanging out' of Lexuses. Maybe you're talking about the ES300's exhaust pipe, which is visible from the rear where it curves around the axle. Either way, its not a design flaw, and the ES300 has an exemplary reliability record. How is this different from the rear of a 944 n/a, where the spare tire well and fuel tank can be seen from under the rear bumper? Also, you mentioned the 'cheap' paint used by Lexus. Wrong again. Lexus, during the development of its cars, puts the paint, as well as other components of the car, through rigorous testing that is second to none. The result is a car that will stand the test of time. I could list numerous specific tests they performed during R&D which were pretty extreme, but I'm not going to bother listing all of them for the sake of time and brevity.

European build quality is certainly impressive, but don't discount the quality of a Japanese product. Either way you will get a great product, which will last for a long time.
I'll have to agree with others here. Don't knock a car unless you've tried it.

UDPride

I will back up Nabeel on this. My old man is on his fourth Lexus (old GS300s and now driving a GS430). Never once has any of the four cars been in for unscheduled service -- ever. Its also a company car so there is another person at work who is on their fourth Lexus as well (they get new ones about the same time). Again, never ever been in for unscheduled service. I know this because they usually con me into dropping them off for them. Anyway, Im not a Lexus man by any means but my pops GS430 is as watertight and rattle free as a bank vault. Its extemly fast, but not the road feel like I prefer from a BMW. Still, I cant argue with the quality. The new LS430s are just sick if you do a lot of highway driving. Lexus attention to detail is downright paranoid. I read an article once where they had one guy on staff who's sole job was to create the reflex in the cupholders so they would extend out with a slight delay and resistance to convey a message of quality and stability. Another guys job was to make sure all the interior switches had enough resistance and quality to them to feel like they would last forever.

I also think its cool that in the winter when its 20 below out, the Lexus dealer has a fleet of RX300s they keep running at idle outside in the parking lot with heater and heated seats on at full blast so when you bring your car in for service and they give you keys to the loaner, you hop in and its as toasty as a campfire as soon as you get in.

Something tells me Im not going to see that at my local Subaru dealer when my next oil change is due.

Wasnt this thread something or other about a PT Cruiser????

SidViscous

Turbo Pt Cruiser.

Pshaw

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