[quote]Originally posted by Paul Kroenke:
<strong>
The board is not in any jeopardy whatsoever. Want to know why? Because NO ONE GIVES A CRAP about copyright anything. Only whining crybabies who need to stir things up to get attention and feel special, such as yourself, bring up things like that. They have no relevance to any real danger whatsoever. But I will drop it now before I get started because someone with the wool over their eyes as bad as you got it is too far gone to EVER change their mind or admit their wrong about ANYTHING, so I might as well save my fingers the trouble. Wouldnt want to get arthritis when Im old and decrepit. Someone who is always going against the mainstream, well it can safely be said they are doing it for that sake alone because logic dictates that meainstream is indeed usually right, or at the very least, sometimes right. Sorry to make you realize this so very late in life.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You see, thats where you are wrong. You must be new to Porsche's if you don't know about all the different copyright battles that Porsche have been involved in and won, I might add. Porsche will find this and they will do something about it. Do some research before you start flaming.

Nothing personal bud.

Your alignment being off will have a lot to do with it as well.

 

Paul,
Here is a little history lesson.

In the mid-late 70's Porsche introduced a turbocharged version of the 911 and called it the 930. It was a car that was supposed to save porsche and almost put it in the history books with studebaker, ******, american motors, and other brands you never heard of.

See it turns out some guy i believe he was a doctor went out and bought himself a 930. He probably was a know it all like yourself and when taking a turn around LaJolla california I believe he had his foot on the gas. Now in the early days of turbos, the turbo was either on or off. as he was taking the turn the turbo went on. this caused terminal oversteer. Terminal oversteer. You didnt have terminal oversteer cuz you are still here to talk about it.

seems his family thought the fact that this little boy (like you) could handle his car and had to find someone to blame. guess who they blamed? guess who the jury put the blame on? if you guessed porsche you would be right.

now in your case porsche made ten years of improvements to lessen the likelyhood of you doing the same lame dumb *** thing. but the car you bought was modified which may have taken some of the built in safety items designed to protect you from yourself out of the car. coupled with you putting a car on the road that you said needed an alignment and a car that you didn't know how to drive and viola.

Maybe your own inabilty to handle what you have caused the accident. why dont you sue porsche for designing a car that permitted modifications making too much of a car for a child to own.

Now about the big mean company. Yeah porsche NA makes money from the manuals. they also make money from every part they sell. they almost went out of business again in the early ninetys but had a japanese car manufacturer help them redesign their assembly line and parts bin. now they are one of the more profitable manufacturers and they put a lot of profits back into R&D.

Here comes tough Paul he's gonna cut into porsche's profits and distribute illegal bootlegs of their manuals. well if there is no profit there is less R&D and maybe no more porsche, but paul beat them at their own game.

As a paid member of this board I object to you a grubber jeopardizing my investment and my valuable resource.

Again, you are a schmuck!

And moron, this isn't my real name, and the wife you claimed to be hammering in another post is Leroy!

 

[quote]Originally posted by Mr. Bates - Masta2U:
<strong>930. .....I believe he had his foot on the gas. </strong><hr></blockquote>


No, the problem there was that he DIDN"T have his foot on the gas.

That was the imfamous "trailing throttle oversteer"

take you foot of the gas in the corner and the motor "lifts" the motor lifting causes the rear of the car to lift as well, shifting weight from the rear to the front. With less weight on the rear tires they lift and "PITCH/TOE" in-ward

.......causing immediate and severe oversteer.......

"trailing throttle oversteer".. <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />


(as people were approaching turns they would go ," O crap "and just let off the throttle. They want to keep on the throttle.
.
.
oh god, do I want a 930! They just sound like so much fun.

 

Companies weigh out this stuff all the time. Is it worth it for us to spend the money in legal fees. Is it costing us more than it would cost us legally. This is the main factor in the copyright game. I invite them to even try and do something if they wish. I am young, and own very little. I will represent myself and fight hard, costing me nothing. They have my IP. They can get my email through here. Let them come if they choose. But there are 2 things. First, they will never ever find out about it. Second, if they did, they will do nothing. If you guys dont know this, you havent been pirating very long or not at all. In master baters case he is just stirring up the pot. But to you others, that just shows me you really havent done this that much. Trust me, they almost never go after anyone. Im sure porsche did win some suits and caused some chaos. But I will guess that A)the pirates were charging or B)it was very large and out of control.

Masta Bater-my empty stomach says your letter is too long. Im sure it was real good though.

And to the last guy about the 930. Yeah I have heard and read all about that. That car is wild. And in 78 they actually upped power by 60, too. So 2 years at "240" Im sure caused enough havoc. Then at 300, man. A lot of people must have fallen prey to that weight transfer problem. But the 944 is totally different. And my situation is much different. If I thought it was my fault I would live and learn and be quiet. But I am trying to nail down what exactly it is that did it. Obviously if I were mario andretti I would have came out unscathed. But I am no stranger to driving and have autocrossed in a number of cars for a while now. It happened very much out of the blue, which made me think something was up. So I believe I will take the advice and tighten up the front. I think I'll look for a bigger sway bar.

I forgot to say this, as for the konis, they were half way up front, and all the way stiff in the back. Do I really want to soften the rear with that stiff torsion bar back there? What do you guys think I should set them to?

Obviously I will get it aligned when its fixed, so that should help a big part there.

The springs I think I will leave in all around. Just too much trouble to change everything around.

So here's what I'll do. I will go with a bigger front sway bar. Get it aligned. Go with 225 up front and 245's in the rear. Need a new front tire anyways. So I can just order 2 245s. And after I get advice on the konis I will change them. We'll see how it changed on the autox.

Thanks to everyone for helping me nail down the problem. I know everyone will always automatically assume its driver, which is probably the correct assumption in most cases. But I know it shouldnt have happened so easily. So thanks again! Ok now Im really starving. mmm food....

Paul K

 

"That was the imfamous "trailing throttle oversteer" take you foot of the gas in the corner and the motor "lifts" the motor lifting causes the rear of the car to lift as well, shifting weight from the rear to the front. With less weight on the rear tires they lift and "PITCH/TOE" in-ward

.......causing immediate and severe oversteer.......

"trailing throttle oversteer".. "

Uh... toe-in would cause less oversteering of the rear-end. Toe-out would be causing more oversteering. This is the effect that Honda/Nissa/Mazda uses in their 4-wheel-steering cars. A the initial steering-input, the rear wheels toe-out in the opposite direction as the steering (inside rear actually toes-in). This quickly brings the back-end around. Then the rear wheels are brought in-line with the front wheels for stability.

Nahh, the real cause of lift-throttle oversteer is engine-braking. That's why it's more pronounced at higher-RPMs when you lift the throttle. Also the same effect if you pull up on the parking-brake the next time you're cornering at the limit...

 

31mm Rear Torsion bars!! Holy crap, that is a 382 wheel rate. If the front is any less then that, and I don't think Eibach made anything that high, you will have oversteer. My setup is 250 front springs and 254 rear torsion bars and I can get the rear end to come loose with the throttle while on the Auto-X course. Your spring rates
were way out of balance.

 

The 944 is extremely forgiving in both the wet AND in the snow. With my susp/tire combo, I have yet to get scared in the wet (knock on wood). Oversteer is easily corrected with accurate steering and throttle inputs with the least amount of effort. You have to be either 1) A real moron, or 2)Competing on the track at track speeds to actually spin a 944 in a turn. A slightly above average driver should have no problem controlling this car in or out of a slide. However, 31mm is STIFF! Moderate speeds in the wet and unmatched or incorrectly adjusted shocks would be a disaster waiting to happen. All y'all saying it was Paul's fault for not being Mario Andretti should think again. I'd like to see what you would have done in his shoes. Personally, I wouldnt want to be in them, even if I was drifting in Renault R5 turbos since I was 11.

 

Oh yeah, Master Bates, I know we kinda have this truce going on between us, but dont you think you are being just a wee bit irrational?
ps, Wasnt Porsche actually the worlds most profitable car company last year or in 2000? (profit : size or /volume ratio)
And dont pretend you're an expert on terminal lift oversteer. Sure you can kick a 930s tail out when you're nailing the boost in a corner (I wouldnt do that, last time I checked, they dont handle all that good), but the 911s terminal lift oversteer is caused by a loss of torque (when you lift off the throttle in a turn) which makes the heavy end want to spin around, much like if you throw a hammer with the light end in front. And yes, it is scary as hell, but it can be corrected (with skill and a couple lanes ). How do I know? Pops had 2 911s, one was a mint 87 cabrio flexi flyer (hint hint).

 

[quote]Originally posted by Danno:
<strong>Uh... toe-in would cause less oversteering of the rear-end. </strong><hr></blockquote>

hmmmm........How could toe in cause understeer........ There would be suddenly less distance between the two rear tires than the fronts, you'd be half way thru a turn and the size of the contact patches in the rear decrease.......

with less of a contact patch in the rear, of course the car would want to swap sides.

And how can you compare the handling physics of a rear engined, rear wheel drive car to a front engine, 4WD drive car?

 

[quote]Originally posted by Luke:
<strong>

hmmmm........How could toe in cause understeer........ There would be suddenly less distance between the two rear tires than the fronts, you'd be half way thru a turn and the size of the contact patches in the rear decrease.......

with less of a contact patch in the rear, of course the car would want to swap sides.

And how can you compare the handling physics of a rear engined, rear wheel drive car to a front engine, 4WD drive car?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Luke the reason danno can compare the handling physics of those different layouts is because the basic toe in and toe out settings will effect the cars in the same way. I'm not saying that all car will have the same characteristics with the same setting, but the more you increace toe out in the rear the more oversteer you get (everything has its limit). Think about cornering wieghts if you are turning hard left the ouside right tires are toing most of the work. That ouside rear tire if set in a toe out would be aiding in the cars rotation (i wish I could draw a diagram here).

 

"hmmmm........How could toe in cause understeer........ There would be suddenly less distance between the two rear tires than the fronts, you'd be half way thru a turn and the size of the contact patches in the rear decrease.......

with less of a contact patch in the rear, of course the car would want to swap sides."

Well, if this was the effect (reduced contact patch size), then BOTH toe-in AND toe-out would cause oversteer. However, the amount of toe change is miniscule so contact patch won't change, so it's more the direction they're pointing that makes a difference. Besides, if aiming a wheel away from straight ahead causes it to lose traction, how can we ever turn a car with the front tires anyway?

Here's the diagram that Ian wanted:



Also of interest is how the 2nd-gen. RX-7's passive rear-steer is generated by a floating hub. It's held in by bushings that are distorted under cornering forces. With little initial force, the rear wheels toe-out to make the car turn-in quicker (really the back end comes out). Then as cornering forces increase, the rear hub toes-in for some understeer and stability.

I don't think Honda's and Nissan's active steering-rack in the rear suspension was as simple, although parallel parking in the Honda was a piece of cake!

 

Yep that was the one I was looking for, thanks danno.

 

So the good doctor either took his foot off the gas to spin the car into "terminal" oversteer or threw it into oversteer when the boost kicked in around a turn. Fact is his estate sued porsche and almost bankrupted porsche. part of the reason there wasnt much development of the 911 in the 80s was the fear the layout would be eliminated because of backlash from the lawsuit and the fact that unsafe at any speed was still relatively recent.

isnt that why the 928 was made front engined and planned to replace the 911.

And lemon you are correct that porsche was the most profitable company last year. they were amost bankrupt in the late 80s early 90s. they made their money doing R&D for other companies to stay afloat. look up the archives and the articles say porsche had a foreign/japanese car company come in as a consultant to revamp the line. hence the same nose on the boxster and the 911 etc.

Also porsche sued a load of internet sites for patent infringement because of domain names! Try selling a set of windows disks on ebay. Microsoft, a small cap company compared to porsche will press charges.

Question for the board: How many people will take a liesurely drive in a car they are unfamiliar with with wheels visibly out of alignment.

Paul if you had half the brains as you have attitude you would border on self sufficient!

Again thanks in advance for screwing up the board you freeloading moron.

 

Well truthfully the 911 rear engine layout is a design flaw, it has taken all these year and all these changes to get the car to exibit less of the drastic oversteer that the early 911's all fall victom too.

The 928 was designed as a different type of car than the 911.
911 = sports car and
928 = grand turing car

I would not blame Porsche's problems in the 70's and 80's with one law suit. Audi and the unitnended acceleration is about the only company that can lay claim to nearly being put of buisness due to one claim, damn the media. Porsches problems were partly due to the fact that sports car sales fell off, emissions and other factors all started to cut into porsches sales here in the states.

 

Paul -
Brother I am not trying to add fuel to the fire here (trust me I regret adding this already), but have you ever taken your car on a skid pad? I think you would be surprised to see that the 944/951 is EXTREMELY hard to spin out from pure throttle application. Its a whole other story with the 911s. I was on thepad last week with my NA (yes I know considerably less power than the 951) but there were also a handfull of moded 951s and we all could have the tires screaming and still not have the back end come around. The only time it did happen was when someone brought up the throttle too much in an effort to correct understeer. All of this on a tighter curve than you will probably see on most streets.

All this being said I don't doubt that a car that is out of alignment with the incorrect suspension setup would contribute to upsetting the chassis, but I think the fact of the matter is that spins in these cars are predominantly caused by the driver (atleast they were in my two spins).