Update: solenoid, starter, or relay???
05-20-2003, 10:28 AM
#1
Burning Brakes
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Update: solenoid, starter, or relay???
Here's yesterday's link for anyone interested:
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=020679#000000" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=020679#000000</a>
The update is:
I can start the car (starter cranks and engine turns over) every time by turning the ignition over and jumping the "ignition bypass" post on the solenoid while laying helplessly under the car (refer to manual for which post).
The ignition switch is NOT bad; I "hot wired" it and got the exact same result:
Spinning solenoid, not engaging the starter; not cranking the engine (not at all, not even a little).
Now for the funny stuff:
My fiancee / wife in a few days, Bridget, comes out and says: "Let me give it a try." I say, "Okay, but it won't start unless I jump the starter / solenoid post."
She rubs her hands together (sparks fly from the magic pixie dust) and WHALLAA:
She turns it over and it roars to happy life.
We get home from a little drive. I park it in the garage and turn it off. I try to start it: No go.
So, the problem is intermittent (but mostly just doesn't work for me), and it is NOT the ignition switch in the steering column.
I can't get the darn relay out. Both Bridget (small fingers) and I (big fingers) tried pulling straight out to no avail.
What's the trick?
Does anyone think that the problem is NOT the relay?
<a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=020679#000000" target="_blank">http://forums.rennlist.com/forums/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=020679#000000</a>
The update is:
I can start the car (starter cranks and engine turns over) every time by turning the ignition over and jumping the "ignition bypass" post on the solenoid while laying helplessly under the car (refer to manual for which post).
The ignition switch is NOT bad; I "hot wired" it and got the exact same result:
Spinning solenoid, not engaging the starter; not cranking the engine (not at all, not even a little).
Now for the funny stuff:
My fiancee / wife in a few days, Bridget, comes out and says: "Let me give it a try." I say, "Okay, but it won't start unless I jump the starter / solenoid post."
She rubs her hands together (sparks fly from the magic pixie dust) and WHALLAA:
She turns it over and it roars to happy life.
We get home from a little drive. I park it in the garage and turn it off. I try to start it: No go.
So, the problem is intermittent (but mostly just doesn't work for me), and it is NOT the ignition switch in the steering column.
I can't get the darn relay out. Both Bridget (small fingers) and I (big fingers) tried pulling straight out to no avail.
What's the trick?
Does anyone think that the problem is NOT the relay?
05-20-2003, 10:40 AM
#2
Sounds like the solinoid to me, when it does this next time take something like a smaller hammer or a rachet and tap on the starter and solinod, most of the time if its the solinoid this will allow it to start.
Mark
Mark
Mark
Mark
05-20-2003, 11:03 AM
#3
Nordschleife Master
Seems like you get main power down to the solenoid fine, it is the trigger power that is causing you problems, that pixie dust seems to bypass. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I suppose the trigger wire could be broken inside the harness but more likely it is a connection or switch. Get some dielectric grease and start backtracking the trigger. The first stop is a two pole plug up by the brake booster. One post is the starter trigger and the other is the alternator exciter.
Go buy a cheap multimeter to help you back track.
If you want to replace the solenoid I can get one drop shipped to you for $29. I did this for two guys in the last week/10 days. Maybe there is some new curse on 944 starters? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Oh, and don't whack the starter with a hammer/steel bar. These Bosch starters are almost indestructible. But they have permanent magnets riveted on the inside of the body of the starter. If you whack it too hard you may crack one of the magnets. Then you are in trouble.
I suppose the trigger wire could be broken inside the harness but more likely it is a connection or switch. Get some dielectric grease and start backtracking the trigger. The first stop is a two pole plug up by the brake booster. One post is the starter trigger and the other is the alternator exciter.
Go buy a cheap multimeter to help you back track.
If you want to replace the solenoid I can get one drop shipped to you for $29. I did this for two guys in the last week/10 days. Maybe there is some new curse on 944 starters? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />
Oh, and don't whack the starter with a hammer/steel bar. These Bosch starters are almost indestructible. But they have permanent magnets riveted on the inside of the body of the starter. If you whack it too hard you may crack one of the magnets. Then you are in trouble.
05-20-2003, 11:27 AM
#4
Burning Brakes
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Iceshark: If the solenoid isn't engaging the starter, then why does it work when I provide 12V directly from the battery?
Does anyone have a picture of the plug at the brake booster?
_____
Get some dielectric grease and start backtracking the trigger. The first stop is a two pole plug up by the brake booster. One post is the starter trigger and the other is the alternator exciter
_____
Yesterday I followed "a" wire from the alternator, but lost it at the firewall.
Does anyone have a picture of the plug at the brake booster?
_____
Get some dielectric grease and start backtracking the trigger. The first stop is a two pole plug up by the brake booster. One post is the starter trigger and the other is the alternator exciter
_____
Yesterday I followed "a" wire from the alternator, but lost it at the firewall.
05-20-2003, 11:51 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
wiring diagram shows it's a red/black
<a href="http://www.pelicanparts.com/944/electrical/944_84_1_1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.pelicanparts.com/944/electrical/944_84_1_1.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.pelicanparts.com/944/electrical/944_84_1_1.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.pelicanparts.com/944/electrical/944_84_1_1.jpg</a>
05-20-2003, 12:13 PM
#6
Nordschleife Master
Jake, you are in line with my thoughts regarding the solenoid, and why I think it is a connection/switch.
I don't have an early 944 to look at and give you better specific info. Ryan D. should be done with school soon so suppose I could look at his car if this drags out, which I hope it doesn't.
But take a look at the harness that goes from the alternator down to the starter. It runs under the intake manifold. Just after the rear of the block two wires will exit. These are the wires you are interested in that go to the 1st plug in question to be tested.
I don't have an early 944 to look at and give you better specific info. Ryan D. should be done with school soon so suppose I could look at his car if this drags out, which I hope it doesn't.
But take a look at the harness that goes from the alternator down to the starter. It runs under the intake manifold. Just after the rear of the block two wires will exit. These are the wires you are interested in that go to the 1st plug in question to be tested.
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05-20-2003, 01:04 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
and if you have the dielectric tune-up grease, it wouldn't hurt to take apart ALL your wires off the both the + & - battery terminals, clean all the oxidation off the copper and 'grease them'...do the same with the starter connections...this has cured many similar problems.
05-20-2003, 02:07 PM
#9
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Connections are the most critical part. Recently, a friend of mine was replacing the starter.."Damn thing just clicks..." I Said "UmmmmHave you checked your battery cables? " (they were white with oxidation) I removed the cables, cleaned the connections and saved him the cost of the starter.
05-20-2003, 03:52 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Bob S. 1984 Silver:
<strong>Connections are the most critical part. Recently, a friend of mine was replacing the starter.."Damn thing just clicks..." I Said "UmmmmHave you checked your battery cables? " (they were white with oxidation) I removed the cables, cleaned the connections and saved him the cost of the starter.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yep.. the girl who cuts my hair (20-something college student, zero mechanical knowledge & a BF who is apparently equally clueless) was complaining of an intermitent no-start on her 200,000+++ mile Corolla.. I loaned her some latex gloves from the lab & told her to "wiggle the connections on the battery." Sure enough, "When I flipped back the red plastic cover on the connection, the whole thing came off the post thingy battery." Well, hello. Now we know why it won't start...
Jim, "Don't worry, Darling. It only seems kinky the first time!"
<strong>Connections are the most critical part. Recently, a friend of mine was replacing the starter.."Damn thing just clicks..." I Said "UmmmmHave you checked your battery cables? " (they were white with oxidation) I removed the cables, cleaned the connections and saved him the cost of the starter.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Yep.. the girl who cuts my hair (20-something college student, zero mechanical knowledge & a BF who is apparently equally clueless) was complaining of an intermitent no-start on her 200,000+++ mile Corolla.. I loaned her some latex gloves from the lab & told her to "wiggle the connections on the battery." Sure enough, "When I flipped back the red plastic cover on the connection, the whole thing came off the post thingy battery." Well, hello. Now we know why it won't start...
Jim, "Don't worry, Darling. It only seems kinky the first time!"
05-20-2003, 06:09 PM
#12
Nordschleife Master
It is funny. Porsche Factory doesn't officially like dielectric grease. Something about picking up dust and dirt.
Of course, these are the same guys that gave us this crummy wiring in the first place! <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />
Guess it is just what you have to put up with in a fine car that is going on nearly 20 years for the first examples.
Of course, these are the same guys that gave us this crummy wiring in the first place! <img border="0" alt="[crying]" title="" src="graemlins/crying.gif" />
Guess it is just what you have to put up with in a fine car that is going on nearly 20 years for the first examples.
05-20-2003, 09:23 PM
#13
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Great timing! I have been having similar problems with my car....after sitting for the week, when I try to start it on a weekend the first start is always a push and pop the clutch deal...then immediately after that I can re-start w/ the key....after 2 weekends like that, it's getting old...!
05-21-2003, 03:28 AM
#14
Nordschleife Master
Be glad these aren't Jags, guys - they have it a HELL of alot worse!
Anyway, I had a problem with the 944 I just got, and the previous owner had replaced the starter cable to the positive terminal...but if you wiggled the wires, it would cut off and on at will.
So we removed the positive cable, and took a look at it - lo and behold it had 3 inches of corrosion! Cut it back until we couldn't find any, and she quit being a PITA. Just a suggestion to check it out.
Best of luck!
- Julie
Anyway, I had a problem with the 944 I just got, and the previous owner had replaced the starter cable to the positive terminal...but if you wiggled the wires, it would cut off and on at will.
So we removed the positive cable, and took a look at it - lo and behold it had 3 inches of corrosion! Cut it back until we couldn't find any, and she quit being a PITA. Just a suggestion to check it out.
Best of luck!
- Julie
05-21-2003, 09:23 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
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Julie, Yesterday I traced my problem at least partially to the 12V supply from the battery. It carries enough current to light up a little 12V lamp, but not to start to motor. Odd. I'm having a tough time following it back and up toward to the battery, any pointers?
Jake
Jake