Head Gasket & Head Experts, I Need Advice
06-02-2003, 02:05 PM
#1
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Head Gasket & Head Experts, I Need Advice
First the history:
A few days after I bought my S2 with 56,000 miles in 2000 the clutch went. The dealer sent me to his mechanic. I had his mechanic replace all the fluids while doing the clutch.
A few days after that the car overheated because the lower hose was installed wrong, and the pulley cut it.
Hose was replaced, and the milkshake in the coolant started.
I replaced the O-rings three times. This last time the mechanic (a porsche expert) said it is the head gasket. He recommends rebuilding the head with a 3 angle valve job, valve stem & seals etc. total cost about $2,200.
Question:
I have already driven the car 16,000 miles with this condition, and the car drives great.
Should I have my wrench tighten/re torque the head to the block? Will that possibly stop the oil.
I get maybe 1 oz of oil in the coolant every 750 miles.
What else should be done if the head is removed? the car has 73,000 miles on it.
Should I just drive the car and wait till oil starts accumulating in the tank at a much greater rate?
Does anybody want to buy the car as it is? I have a lot of new stuff in the car.
A few days after I bought my S2 with 56,000 miles in 2000 the clutch went. The dealer sent me to his mechanic. I had his mechanic replace all the fluids while doing the clutch.
A few days after that the car overheated because the lower hose was installed wrong, and the pulley cut it.
Hose was replaced, and the milkshake in the coolant started.
I replaced the O-rings three times. This last time the mechanic (a porsche expert) said it is the head gasket. He recommends rebuilding the head with a 3 angle valve job, valve stem & seals etc. total cost about $2,200.
Question:
I have already driven the car 16,000 miles with this condition, and the car drives great.
Should I have my wrench tighten/re torque the head to the block? Will that possibly stop the oil.
I get maybe 1 oz of oil in the coolant every 750 miles.
What else should be done if the head is removed? the car has 73,000 miles on it.
Should I just drive the car and wait till oil starts accumulating in the tank at a much greater rate?
Does anybody want to buy the car as it is? I have a lot of new stuff in the car.
06-02-2003, 02:30 PM
#2
Jane Bond 007
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Wouldn't a blown head gasket cause the car to overheat? I've never had a HG go and have the car perform normally. What do some of the experts think? (remembering that an ex is a has been and a spurt is a drip under pressure! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> 
)
)
06-02-2003, 03:06 PM
#3
I'd be concerned that the original overheat may have caused a mild warping of the head. If you are seeing oil in the Coolant and the o-rings have been replaced, I would hope it is only the headgasket. The pipe that goes from the block to the Oil Filter Housing has an O-ring on both sides. Many of the manuals, and web instructions, only document the replacement of one side. The pipe is removalable, and the other side O-ring needs replacement as well.
I had the headgasket on mine go from age. I didn't have any overheating problems, only oil in the coolant. The headgasket seals had broken down.
I would be very concerned if you have any coolant in your oil. Your bearings won't have long to live. Torquing down the head won't help if the damage to the gasket is already done. Have your oil tested.
I had the headgasket on mine go from age. I didn't have any overheating problems, only oil in the coolant. The headgasket seals had broken down.
I would be very concerned if you have any coolant in your oil. Your bearings won't have long to live. Torquing down the head won't help if the damage to the gasket is already done. Have your oil tested.
06-02-2003, 03:15 PM
#4
Also... remember that the not all HG failures involve the combustion chamber (A most popular topic with overboast). On my engine, and a few others I have seen, the rubber seal between the Oil and coolant galleries fails, causing the dreaded mix. There are no other symtoms, everything ran well.
It a little hard to see in the picture, but that is what happen with mine:
<a href="http://www.**********/Engine_files/image009.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.**********/Engine_files/image009.jpg</a>
It a little hard to see in the picture, but that is what happen with mine:
<a href="http://www.**********/Engine_files/image009.jpg" target="_blank">http://www.**********/Engine_files/image009.jpg</a>
06-02-2003, 03:16 PM
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Vaino,
First o ring job we didnt pull the pipe. we did get both o rings the second time, and the Porsche expert got both the third time.
Sounds like you had the same symptoms as me. No overheating (other than the time the hose was cut).
What did it cost you to have the head gasket replaced, and what else did you have done. I will do the belts because I am there. The tensioner pad has about 3,000 miles on it.
The Porsche mechanic told me he would take off the head, and have it pressure tested to make sure it isnt cracked, check to make sure it isnt warped, and possibly grind it if necessary. If it is too warped i would have to find a new head. I cant imagine it being too warped since i get so little oil in the coolant. I wonder if it went because of age, or if the overheating caused it. Hindsight is great.
First o ring job we didnt pull the pipe. we did get both o rings the second time, and the Porsche expert got both the third time.
Sounds like you had the same symptoms as me. No overheating (other than the time the hose was cut).
What did it cost you to have the head gasket replaced, and what else did you have done. I will do the belts because I am there. The tensioner pad has about 3,000 miles on it.
The Porsche mechanic told me he would take off the head, and have it pressure tested to make sure it isnt cracked, check to make sure it isnt warped, and possibly grind it if necessary. If it is too warped i would have to find a new head. I cant imagine it being too warped since i get so little oil in the coolant. I wonder if it went because of age, or if the overheating caused it. Hindsight is great.
06-02-2003, 04:02 PM
#6
I did the headgasket myself. I was quoted $1700 for the job, with new belts. I replaced the waterpump, belts, tensioners, studs, and vacuum hoses, etc. I spent about $600 in parts. I went with the Factory Widefire gasket, and factory studs and nuts. I thought the money could be better spent elsewhere. Besides it was a good learning experience. I found several other issues along the way (Vacuum lines, etc.).
I'll take some closeup photos of the headgasket. The seals had just come apart. I would be very surprised at a crack outside the combustion chamber. The overheating may have cause a overpressure, that damaged the seals. They are only rubber afterall.
I'll take some closeup photos of the headgasket. The seals had just come apart. I would be very surprised at a crack outside the combustion chamber. The overheating may have cause a overpressure, that damaged the seals. They are only rubber afterall.
06-02-2003, 04:15 PM
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Vaino,
You have the 8v head. I have the 16v head. The intake and exhaust manifolds have to come off, etc.
My wife also works full time, so i have weekend duty with our 3 month old. moreover, my very competant mechanic refuses to do the job. he has all the tools one could possibly need, compressed air, cleaning tubs, etc in his home garage, and is chicken so you can imagine how i feel about doing the job. oh yeah each valve is something like $85 i think.
You have the 8v head. I have the 16v head. The intake and exhaust manifolds have to come off, etc.
My wife also works full time, so i have weekend duty with our 3 month old. moreover, my very competant mechanic refuses to do the job. he has all the tools one could possibly need, compressed air, cleaning tubs, etc in his home garage, and is chicken so you can imagine how i feel about doing the job. oh yeah each valve is something like $85 i think.
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06-02-2003, 04:18 PM
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On my turbo I was quoted $1200 not including another $400 for a cylinder head redo. I ended up doing it myself and replacing just about every vacuum line known to man.
Sometimes you get white smoke out the tail pipe when you are burning coolant/water. However, getting oil in the coolant could be another sign. I would have him to a leakdown test to verify. Any good shop can do it for you.....if you're going to spend over 2k....a $50 test will give you piece of mind.
Sometimes you get white smoke out the tail pipe when you are burning coolant/water. However, getting oil in the coolant could be another sign. I would have him to a leakdown test to verify. Any good shop can do it for you.....if you're going to spend over 2k....a $50 test will give you piece of mind.
06-02-2003, 04:40 PM
#9
It is better safe than sorry. I had to take the intake and exhaust manifolds off as well. I can be a scary job. If I needed to use the car as transportation, instead of a fun weekend, I wouldn't have done it myself.
I've three bumpkins at home too, and finding time to work on it was interesting. It took me a month of "spare" time, mostly late nights, and very early weekend morning.
I've three bumpkins at home too, and finding time to work on it was interesting. It took me a month of "spare" time, mostly late nights, and very early weekend morning.
06-02-2003, 04:49 PM
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for a week or so i might get my wife to take me to the LIRR, after that im on my own.
i had the o rings done when i had the mazda on ebay, and used the mazda that week. while this is in the shop i will be using the firebird for pleasure drives to wherever i want to go. definitely not for errands, pleasure all the way mr jc taylor.
i had the o rings done when i had the mazda on ebay, and used the mazda that week. while this is in the shop i will be using the firebird for pleasure drives to wherever i want to go. definitely not for errands, pleasure all the way mr jc taylor.
06-02-2003, 05:24 PM
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confirmed with my wrench everything the shop that did the o-rings said, and set up an appointment with the local independent shop for the first week of July.
As a financial escape route, if the head is cracked i am going to replace it with an 8v head - assuming the passages line up.
anyone have any ideas on that.
i figure a 3.0 with an 8v head should have between the 170hp of the 2.7l and 208 hp, which should keep me out of trouble, and get rid of the cars achillies heel.
As a financial escape route, if the head is cracked i am going to replace it with an 8v head - assuming the passages line up.
anyone have any ideas on that.
i figure a 3.0 with an 8v head should have between the 170hp of the 2.7l and 208 hp, which should keep me out of trouble, and get rid of the cars achillies heel.
06-02-2003, 07:01 PM
#13
It would likely be more expensive to do the 8V swap, then finding a good 16V head. Too many parts are different. Belts, tensioner, Exhaust, Intake, Distributor, ignition wires, etc.
06-02-2003, 07:14 PM
#14
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You probably have a minor head gasket leak.
On my previous 924S race motor I had some minor oil in the coolant. I replaced the oil cooler seals and it got better, but still had some. Never any coolant in the oil. I ran like this for about 4 months. The engine eventually blew-up, but that was due to a spun #2 rod bearing and had nothing to do with coolant/oil. Just age of bearings and # race hours.
When I took the engine apart I noticed that the headgasket was pretty beat up and had been leaking in spots. Not near the cylinder rings, but in the center portions of the gasket. These gaskets are paper and over time can being to leak. I did have waterpump fail on this engine and did get it really hot. No problems at the time, but this may have contributed to weak headgasket. Also noted were some corrosion holes in the head. No big deal as I got the head welded-up and remachined flat. Now it is the head I am using in my current race motor and works fine. Good power and not a drop of oil.
Bottomline is that a couple drops of oil is not a big deal. If you have ANY coolant in the oil STOP and FIX it RIGHT AWAY. This could damage the bearings.
A little oil in the coolant is not really that bad. Just keep an eye on it. Go after the headgasket later on or if you start to notice alot more oil.
On my previous 924S race motor I had some minor oil in the coolant. I replaced the oil cooler seals and it got better, but still had some. Never any coolant in the oil. I ran like this for about 4 months. The engine eventually blew-up, but that was due to a spun #2 rod bearing and had nothing to do with coolant/oil. Just age of bearings and # race hours.
When I took the engine apart I noticed that the headgasket was pretty beat up and had been leaking in spots. Not near the cylinder rings, but in the center portions of the gasket. These gaskets are paper and over time can being to leak. I did have waterpump fail on this engine and did get it really hot. No problems at the time, but this may have contributed to weak headgasket. Also noted were some corrosion holes in the head. No big deal as I got the head welded-up and remachined flat. Now it is the head I am using in my current race motor and works fine. Good power and not a drop of oil.
Bottomline is that a couple drops of oil is not a big deal. If you have ANY coolant in the oil STOP and FIX it RIGHT AWAY. This could damage the bearings.
A little oil in the coolant is not really that bad. Just keep an eye on it. Go after the headgasket later on or if you start to notice alot more oil.
06-02-2003, 07:19 PM
#15
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Tom R.:
<strong>
moreover, my very competant mechanic refuses to do the job. he has all the tools one could possibly need, compressed air, cleaning tubs, etc in his home garage, and is chicken so you can imagine how i feel about doing the job. oh yeah each valve is something like $85 i think.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hmm,
If your competant mechnic is afraid to do the job then he might not be so competent. If he does not want to because he can't make any money that fine, but afraid?
It is true I have not done a 16v engine, but I did rebuild a motor in my father's garage with his help. These motors are NOT that complicated. With little time and patience any trully competent mechacnic can do a head on these cars!
<strong>
moreover, my very competant mechanic refuses to do the job. he has all the tools one could possibly need, compressed air, cleaning tubs, etc in his home garage, and is chicken so you can imagine how i feel about doing the job. oh yeah each valve is something like $85 i think.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Hmm,
If your competant mechnic is afraid to do the job then he might not be so competent. If he does not want to because he can't make any money that fine, but afraid?
It is true I have not done a 16v engine, but I did rebuild a motor in my father's garage with his help. These motors are NOT that complicated. With little time and patience any trully competent mechacnic can do a head on these cars!