Fishey

Your telling me you honestly can get any sort of accuracy at a track with adjusting a camber via a camber plate?

1. Your ways to measure it are at best poor.
2. Even on an alignment machine with slip plates camber plates do not adjust easily and often require a long time to dial in much longer in my opinon then stock adjustments. I usually end up having to lift the car push pull and pry. Then sit it back down and check and repeat but somehow your going to get a favorable result on a race track without slip plates and without any way to know how much your really changing I don't think so.
3. Changing camber effects alot of things outside of just camber and moving the strut angle isn't going to have favorable results.
4. You need more then -3 degree to be fast? All of our fastest 944 racers are running less then that number. Also thats not only on the 944's but 914's and 911's as well. Its very rare that one of our faster cars will come into the shop and say "I need -3 plus camber" its usually the slow drivers that ask for more camber. I don't even try to argue it because its hopeless because they read on the internet that they need more.

951and944S

Erm, if you know the amount of camber represented by lines/notches on the etched plate....yes.

Not as optimum as a digital alignment machine that can display 10ths of a degree but verifiable by tire width heat trials either way.
Anyone you know that brings bearing pivot plates and an alignment head to race tracks...., especially anyone whom this topic, related to 944s pertains to....?
I think not.

Agreed, the weight of the car is resting on the plates and any adjustment, especially a movement towards a + camber correction is gonna have a ramp effect of the weight due to the angle of the strut tower and strut, adjustments to the - would be easier.

Yes, as mentioned, it affects toe, easily corrected with something as simple as a tape measure or a string. The angle of the strut would have a slight affect on the spring's effective rate as seen at the wheel but we're talking about an amount here that's at best, negligible, read -0-.
I'd be interested in your list of "alot of things outside of just camber" if you'd find the time to enlighten me.

I know tons of people running up to -3deg camber.
As far as 944s go, one won the Octoberfast enduro in '06 at Daytona, the other won the sprint. Maybe your fast 944 buddies weren't there....?

Lastly, you might want to contact Toyo USA before you delve into your next alignment session Fishey....because here are their recommendations for Toyo Ra1 and the newer 888 DOT race tire that most 944s use -

"Toyo Motor Sport radials will provide optimum cornering grip with camber settings between negative 3 and 6 degrees on steer axles. Where adjustment is possible, negative camber on drive axles will also improve cornering grip. Optimum camber angles will provide optimum cornering grip, and therefore will be an important contributing factor for improving lap times."

http://www.toyo.com.au/Pit%20Lane.htm

T

JimV8

I guess all in all I'm fuked cuz I bought the ebay plates.

jaje

There's something to be said by too good to be true (adju camber plates at half the price of everyone else). I know to be weary of aftermarket Porsche goods with unknown brand names on FleaBay.

After looking into most I'm going to go with the Ground Control setup. It looks to be the best value / engineering for the money. Now the decision is between the $300 GC adj setup or the $470 ones. Anyone have any recommendations - does any of them impede basic installation of a 2 point strut tower brace?

M758

I use camberplates (Paragon/GC flat one) on my race car. They do 3 things for me.

1) Fixed solid upper mount for smaller coil over springs
2) Rapid and accurate camber adjustments. Yes I adjusted at the track by 0.5 degree once.
3) Allows me to run -3.5 deg of negative camber. The stock adjusters only get me -2 or so. I can get all I want from camberplates.

951and944S

Now wait Joe, in case you missed it.....all the "fastest 944 racers" use less than -3 deg camber.!

I'm assuming that Fishey aint your alignment guy or you're really slow...

T (wanna be "E-thug")

M758

Wow... Talk about un informed!

I get great accuracty from camber plates. I use them in conjuction with a camber gauge and get exactly what I want. My gauge is old pendulm style that reads in degrees and 10 min increments (1/6th of a degree). Setting accurate camber(to 1/6ths fo a degree) with camberplates is a snap. I would not both to do it with the factory adjusters. When at home or at the track the bigger factor is making sure the ground is level.


As for the process I use a very simple one. Let say I want to add in a 0.5 degree of camber. The process goes like this

1) measure camber on both side of the car on a semi level surface. It just needs to be ok, but not perfect.
2) Record these numbers and factor in 0.5 deg more negative. That is what you want to see and many cases it will be shifted 0.5 deg if the ground is not perfectly level.
3) jack up one side of the car and put on jack stand.
4) take measurement of camber while in the air. Record.
5) Loosen 4 adjuster bolts and move in desired direction.
6) Retake measurement as in #4 and move till the desired change is noted.
7) tigthen camber plate bolts.
8) Lower car and repeat process on the other side.

Depending on how much chamber change you many want to check the tow as well.

Very simple and very effective.

Now as for not needing to -3.0 negative. That is crap. My 944 spec car runs best for speed and tire wear at -3.5 degrees. I tried -3.0 and the car had too much understeer on corner exit. I went back to -3.5 the car was much better.

I would think that 7 years of racing and 45+ class wins would teach me a little something about what works.

M758

Now as for experience.

The cheap ebay Mookeeh plates were install on the 944 spec car that ran the 25hrs of Thunderhill.

We are waiting for a detailed report, but they lasted the entire 25 hr event with I no issues. In fact the car was 100% reliable and need only one set of tires and used only a few drops of oil.

See here
http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic....&sd=a&start=20

944 Spec at 25hr Race report
http://944spec.org/944SPEC/content/view/95/1/

J Silverman

The more expensive GC plates mount on top of the strut tower and will prohibit you from running a strut tower brace. Personally I dont see the need for a strut tower brace in these cars and I wanted the extra shock travel so I got the $470 ones. The guy I deal with at GC said that he hasnt seen the less expensive plates around the shop for a while so you might want to call them to confirm availability. Im hoping to get them installed on sunday, Ill take some pics for you if I get around to putting them in.

Oh yeah the expensive GC plates are disounted to $430 right now.

FRporscheman

The guy on the NASA forum said they showed no wear after 25 hours of racing. That says a lot.

Maybe the other plates out there are over-engineered?

J Silverman

I dont think that over engineering is a bad thing, especially in a racing application. I like the ground control plates because they use a needle bearing to take the load off of the bearing itself, which means that you should never have to replace the spherical bearing in the plate.

FRporscheman

But you would have to replace the needle bearing?

Sure, in a racing environment, you'd want the best, but if something is proven to be sufficient even for racing, isn't that good enough? And what about for us street drivers? All this time that KLA mounts have been available, I never heard anyone question the engineering of the single spherical bearing. How are those different than cheap camber plates?

I've read KLA mounts are very reliable and don't wear out...

J Silverman

I have several friends that have been using Ground Control camber plates in race cars for 10 years, and not a single one of them has had to replace the needle bearing or spherical bearing in the plates. In fact the only problem was when my friend went off track, and hit a huge pothole. He was probably going 75 mph and the strut was pushed up with enough force to bend the plate. This camber plate was probably 3/4" thick, so you can only imagine how hard that was on the suspension.

Its not that the spherical bearing design is bad, its just not as good as the needle bearing setup. I cant tell you how long the KLA or these camber plates will last, as Ive never used them, I can only say that in the last 5 years of using ground control cadmber plates in street/track cars Ive never had a single failure, so to me its worth the money to get what in reality may only be a slightly better product, but also the peace of mind knowing that Im getting what I paid for.