Timing Chain Conversion...
10-31-2007, 11:03 PM
#16
Lazer Beam Shooter
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You are really walking on egg shells for no reason.
There are people who track 951's (not even an n/a 944) or run insane amounts of boosts and theyre still using timing belts. People beat the crap out of these cars in a sane manner on the track and the timing belt is just fine.
I dont think you can beat a 944 hard enough on the street (without getting a ticket or injuring somebody) to the point where it would damage it.
That being said, say your belt goes and you trash your engine. It would probably cost less for a replacement 944 engine that it would to fabricate a timing chain for it.
I think this subject has been covered on these forums before, and so far everyone has stuck with the timing chain.
On the other hand it is your car, and you can do with it as you please, but im just saying the best thing would be to stick with the timing belt and enjoy your car the way it was meant to be enjoyed.
There are people who track 951's (not even an n/a 944) or run insane amounts of boosts and theyre still using timing belts. People beat the crap out of these cars in a sane manner on the track and the timing belt is just fine.
I dont think you can beat a 944 hard enough on the street (without getting a ticket or injuring somebody) to the point where it would damage it.
That being said, say your belt goes and you trash your engine. It would probably cost less for a replacement 944 engine that it would to fabricate a timing chain for it.
I think this subject has been covered on these forums before, and so far everyone has stuck with the timing chain.
On the other hand it is your car, and you can do with it as you please, but im just saying the best thing would be to stick with the timing belt and enjoy your car the way it was meant to be enjoyed.
10-31-2007, 11:05 PM
#17
Lazer Beam Shooter
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You sound exactly like I sounded 4 years ago when I first got this car. I would freak out about JUST the timing belt.
I also thought I could drive the car like Im a total speedfreak. I was hoping it could hold up to the abuse I gave it, and it did. Eventually it got old.
I also thought I could drive the car like Im a total speedfreak. I was hoping it could hold up to the abuse I gave it, and it did. Eventually it got old.
10-31-2007, 11:22 PM
#18
Racer
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You are really walking on egg shells for no reason.
There are people who track 951's (not even an n/a 944) or run insane amounts of boosts and theyre still using timing belts. People beat the crap out of these cars in a sane manner on the track and the timing belt is just fine.
I dont think you can beat a 944 hard enough on the street (without getting a ticket or injuring somebody) to the point where it would damage it.
That being said, say your belt goes and you trash your engine. It would probably cost less for a replacement 944 engine that it would to fabricate a timing chain for it.
I think this subject has been covered on these forums before, and so far everyone has stuck with the timing chain.
On the other hand it is your car, and you can do with it as you please, but im just saying the best thing would be to stick with the timing belt and enjoy your car the way it was meant to be enjoyed.
There are people who track 951's (not even an n/a 944) or run insane amounts of boosts and theyre still using timing belts. People beat the crap out of these cars in a sane manner on the track and the timing belt is just fine.
I dont think you can beat a 944 hard enough on the street (without getting a ticket or injuring somebody) to the point where it would damage it.
That being said, say your belt goes and you trash your engine. It would probably cost less for a replacement 944 engine that it would to fabricate a timing chain for it.
I think this subject has been covered on these forums before, and so far everyone has stuck with the timing chain.
On the other hand it is your car, and you can do with it as you please, but im just saying the best thing would be to stick with the timing belt and enjoy your car the way it was meant to be enjoyed.
I don't have the equipment (or the knowledge) to fabricate my own rollers and adapt an existing chain.I guess we'll just have to see. I see so much whining and crying (not including my own) that I'm worried about messing it up. Especially all the money I've put into the interior to make it pristine and back to original condition.
I've got all the parts already, a new timing belt, a new balance shaft belt, new rollers, and a tensioning tool. I just haven't ordered the water pump yet. Where exactly is this oil cooler that I hear about? The one that extends into a coolant chamber in the motor? I'm pretty sure I need to change those seals too, right?
Guess I'll go to the Clark's Garage link...
Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2004 Volkswagen Beetle Convt. (Wife's)
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX-P74
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1984 Porsche 944
1981 Pontiac Trans Am WS6 (Olds 455)
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
11-01-2007, 01:30 AM
#19
Lazer Beam Shooter
Rennlist Member
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Where are you located at? Im sure that myself or other rennlist members around the area will be able to assist you with the timing belt job.
It might be a little intimidating at first due to the damage factor if you screw up, but after youve seen it once or twice its not hard at all.
It might be a little intimidating at first due to the damage factor if you screw up, but after youve seen it once or twice its not hard at all.
11-01-2007, 06:11 AM
#20
Race Director
Why not just do everything right the first time and have it good for miles without worrying?
Its like driving your car for like 20,000 miles without changing or checking the oil. When the thing takes a huge dump, are we going to start threads saying how engines shouldnt run on oil, and try to think of 5 different ways that we can change the engine so it can run on the same oil for 50,000 miles?
Its like driving your car for like 20,000 miles without changing or checking the oil. When the thing takes a huge dump, are we going to start threads saying how engines shouldnt run on oil, and try to think of 5 different ways that we can change the engine so it can run on the same oil for 50,000 miles?
11-01-2007, 06:29 AM
#21
RL Community Team
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Timing belts are much more robust than they look. Take a spare belt and try to damage it. They're really tough. They only break when they get really old and brittle... but if you replace it every 5 years or so there's no problem.
The belt system is straightforward, and very simple to service. I wouldn't want to do the timing chain on my Mercedes any time soon. Looks like a very messy, delicate, and risky job. Plus there's the hazard of dropping things into the engine.
Imagine having to do a chain job when you need to change the head gasket. That adds hours to the job. With a belt, you can just slip the belt off and hold it aside with a cord. Nice and easy. And dry.
I understand the desire for a chain and it's bulletproof reliability. I would also prefer a chain on a car I never want to work on, and just drive. But on a car I enjoy working on and tearing down frequently, I'd much rather have the mechanic-friendly belt.
The belt system is straightforward, and very simple to service. I wouldn't want to do the timing chain on my Mercedes any time soon. Looks like a very messy, delicate, and risky job. Plus there's the hazard of dropping things into the engine.
Imagine having to do a chain job when you need to change the head gasket. That adds hours to the job. With a belt, you can just slip the belt off and hold it aside with a cord. Nice and easy. And dry.
I understand the desire for a chain and it's bulletproof reliability. I would also prefer a chain on a car I never want to work on, and just drive. But on a car I enjoy working on and tearing down frequently, I'd much rather have the mechanic-friendly belt.
11-01-2007, 09:38 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
I've got all the parts already, a new timing belt, a new balance shaft belt, new rollers, and a tensioning tool. I just haven't ordered the water pump yet. Where exactly is this oil cooler that I hear about? The one that extends into a coolant chamber in the motor? I'm pretty sure I need to change those seals too, right?
I think your concerns will go away once you tear into the car and see how it works. It really is a robust and simple design. IMO the reason you see so many cars with broken belts is because these cars have become cheap enough to fall into the hands of people that can afford to purchase a $4K car, but can't afford to pay for the $40K car maintenance costs.
11-01-2007, 10:35 AM
#23
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Team SSR
If you really wanted to make the timing belt system stronger you would only need to employ a wider belt (along with the associated pulleys and idlers, etc.)
11-01-2007, 11:58 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
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Personally guys,
I think any engineer who builds an interference engine with a timing belt ought to be shot on sight.
Im not saying our design isnt robust to take a beating, it is, and we can live with the belts and the replacement job isnt too bad. We just replace them and thats that, and true chains are a little more difficult to replace, but they dont usually need replacing until an engine rebuild.
Somebody mentioned that they like tearing down their car all the time, and indeed that was the way a Porsche was meant to be. If you dont want to ever touch it buy a Toyota.
Do keep in mind though BMW did redesign their E30 straight 6 from a belt to a chain when they went to the E36. They did it for a good reason, and the system is alot more robust, even in the DOHC 24 valve engines with vanos.
Posing a question...
If we did go to a chain and electric water pump, could we not adapt a vanos onto the chain and have a VVT 8 valve?! We could certainly reverse the coolant flow, which would probably be more effective than the current design. Somebody with a decade of their life and 40K should do this!!!
I think any engineer who builds an interference engine with a timing belt ought to be shot on sight.
Im not saying our design isnt robust to take a beating, it is, and we can live with the belts and the replacement job isnt too bad. We just replace them and thats that, and true chains are a little more difficult to replace, but they dont usually need replacing until an engine rebuild.
Somebody mentioned that they like tearing down their car all the time, and indeed that was the way a Porsche was meant to be. If you dont want to ever touch it buy a Toyota.
Do keep in mind though BMW did redesign their E30 straight 6 from a belt to a chain when they went to the E36. They did it for a good reason, and the system is alot more robust, even in the DOHC 24 valve engines with vanos.
Posing a question...
If we did go to a chain and electric water pump, could we not adapt a vanos onto the chain and have a VVT 8 valve?! We could certainly reverse the coolant flow, which would probably be more effective than the current design. Somebody with a decade of their life and 40K should do this!!!
11-02-2007, 12:05 AM
#26
A timing chain can be mounted if you have the time and motivation. I had a timing chain on mine but took it off and went with a wider Honda timing belt which connects from the crank to the cam with a tensioner barely pushing against the rear of the belt ( I have a timing chain in my other p-car, a 944S, but it's inside of a Buick Grand National Turbo engine so it doesn't count).
If the tensioner failed, it wouldn't break the belt. I also have a polycarbonate guard between the timing belt and balance belt in case the balance belt breaks. The coolant is reversed so it enters the head first like on newer corvettes and the electric pump can flow 55gpm even at idle. Now if only I had a manufacturer to build these....
If the tensioner failed, it wouldn't break the belt. I also have a polycarbonate guard between the timing belt and balance belt in case the balance belt breaks. The coolant is reversed so it enters the head first like on newer corvettes and the electric pump can flow 55gpm even at idle. Now if only I had a manufacturer to build these....
11-02-2007, 12:09 AM
#27
Rainman
Rennlist Member
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Posing a question...
If we did go to a chain and electric water pump, could we not adapt a vanos onto the chain and have a VVT 8 valve?! We could certainly reverse the coolant flow, which would probably be more effective than the current design. Somebody with a decade of their life and 40K should do this!!!
If we did go to a chain and electric water pump, could we not adapt a vanos onto the chain and have a VVT 8 valve?! We could certainly reverse the coolant flow, which would probably be more effective than the current design. Somebody with a decade of their life and 40K should do this!!!
Wouldn't we need to change the cam for that? Or is there some strange setup that would work just with a chain?
11-02-2007, 09:20 AM
#28
Racer
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Man, I do NOT like throttle by wire. No matter of "awesome" it supposedly is, I still like the control and feel of direct connection. With DBW, there's usually no idle air control valve... so every now and then, you feel your motor fiddle with the throttle plate to keep the idle proper.
The car's ECM also "decides" whether or not you have the right, or should be flooring the gas pedal. Call it a ghetto-traction control... but if I want to leave two 10 foot tire-streaks, I should have the right to... and I don't think the ECM should be making decisions for me and backing it off to 1/2 throttle.
I am so going to hate the future when computers and robots do everything for us around the house. I write software for a living, and even now, when something isn't doing what it's supposed to, I yell at it... "B1tch! You WILL do what I say, you are just a damn computer and if you don't do what I want, I will replace your sorry a$$ right now... !!!" (and then my co-workers peak over at me to make sure I'm ok...)
Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2004 VW Beetle Convertible (Wife's)
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX-P74
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1984 Porsche 944
1981 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter
