Buying a 944 to turn into a race car. early or later model?
10-19-2007, 02:53 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
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Buying a 944 to turn into a race car. early or later model?
Hello everyone,
I am useually hanging out on the boxster side but now I'm looking at purchasing a stock 944 to be my scca/nasa/pca race car project. My intention is to take a stock 944 and gut the interior and do a cage, seats, belts, and tires and start out with Drivers Ed events and some SCCA solo series(timed event in a parking lot). Have no real plans to hoop up the motor; in the beginning I just want to run the snot out of it as is. hehe
That said, I've found several 1984 year 944's for decent prices, however, I am aware of the 1985.5 and newer cars are wider bodies. I'm looking for opinions on whether or not to mess with the narrow bodied cars or just go for an '87 or '88, which seem to be a little more money. I had an '88s at one time and know some the basics on these cars but never really knew exactly what the wider body would get me performance wise.
thanks in advance.
Tom
I am useually hanging out on the boxster side but now I'm looking at purchasing a stock 944 to be my scca/nasa/pca race car project. My intention is to take a stock 944 and gut the interior and do a cage, seats, belts, and tires and start out with Drivers Ed events and some SCCA solo series(timed event in a parking lot). Have no real plans to hoop up the motor; in the beginning I just want to run the snot out of it as is. hehe
That said, I've found several 1984 year 944's for decent prices, however, I am aware of the 1985.5 and newer cars are wider bodies. I'm looking for opinions on whether or not to mess with the narrow bodied cars or just go for an '87 or '88, which seem to be a little more money. I had an '88s at one time and know some the basics on these cars but never really knew exactly what the wider body would get me performance wise.
thanks in advance.
Tom
10-19-2007, 03:27 PM
#2
Race Director
Tom,
Well I can give you alot of anwers on this.
Firstly you said race car right? Where do you want race it?
I race in 944 spec. Our cars have stock motors, stripped interiors, and lightly moded suspensions. It is a great class to racing and we a few new driver in the your area. http://944spec.org
The cars legal for 944 spec are US spec 83-88 and 87 and 88 924S. Al these cars use 2.5L 8 valve motors of about 150 hp. You can updated from any year car and there is no year to have.
Well here is a little backgrond on the model year differences.
83-85 944 - Known as the "early" cars.
These cars use steel front and steel rear suspension. Wheel Offset is 23.3 mm. Some of them tend to be lighter than the later model years both stock and stripped out.
85.5-88 944 - Late cars
These use aluminum front and rear suspension. Wheel offest varries by year.
85.5-86 23.3 mm
87-88 52.3 mm
These tend to be a bit heavier in their chassis even stripped out.
88 Models have a bit more compression and a shorter 5th gear. Both of these mods can be updated to all other cars for 944 spec.
87-88 924S
These are hodgepodge cars. They used the Narrow 924 body with mechnicals from both the early 944 and late 944. Front suspenison is steel like the early cars, rear is aluminum like the 85.5-86 cars. The need to use the 52.3 mm offset wheels to fit under the narrow fenders, but their suspension parts are the same as the early offset cars. Engines are the same as the 87 and 88 944 and both years used the shorter 5th gear.
There are also some key things to look for
1. LSD - Optional in all years and hard to find on stock cars
2. Short 5th gear - Found only in 924S and 88 944, but can be retrofitted to all cars
3. Manual steering rack - Standard on 83 model year only, but some 83's had powersteering. This unit can be retrofitted to all 23.3 mm offset cars and 924S with little trouble. 52.3 mm offset 944's need to use special tie rods to use the manual rack.
4. Non sunroof - a few were made and certainly a nice to have, but not require at all.
5. 88 pistons 10.2:1. all others were 9.5:1 and 10.2's are nice, but after 5 years of racing it is still not clear 10.2's are really an advantage worth spending money on.
In the end here is my advice.
If you are a big guy (ie 200lbs+) getting a early car (83-85) or 924S is good as it may be easier to get to minium weight (2600lbs with driver).
Otherwise any year car will be fine. The performance of the car depends more on how well it is driven than what year it is. Pick the car that best fits you budget and what you plan to fix. I have bought "donor" cars from $350 to $1400. I tend to prefer the 83-85 or 924S cars. The reason is I started out with a wrecked 87 924S and wanted to build a race car. It make it easier to get an 84 chassis since more of the part matched exactly between the cars. There were alot of minor updates made from 85 to 85.5 and it is easier with parts cars to have the same part numbers. Even so I would not pass up a good deal on a later parts car either.
I started building my 944 back in 2000 with many of the same objectives as you have. Eventully that lead to racing in 2002 and getting in with 944 spec right when it started.
Well I can give you alot of anwers on this.
Firstly you said race car right? Where do you want race it?
I race in 944 spec. Our cars have stock motors, stripped interiors, and lightly moded suspensions. It is a great class to racing and we a few new driver in the your area. http://944spec.org
The cars legal for 944 spec are US spec 83-88 and 87 and 88 924S. Al these cars use 2.5L 8 valve motors of about 150 hp. You can updated from any year car and there is no year to have.
Well here is a little backgrond on the model year differences.
83-85 944 - Known as the "early" cars.
These cars use steel front and steel rear suspension. Wheel Offset is 23.3 mm. Some of them tend to be lighter than the later model years both stock and stripped out.
85.5-88 944 - Late cars
These use aluminum front and rear suspension. Wheel offest varries by year.
85.5-86 23.3 mm
87-88 52.3 mm
These tend to be a bit heavier in their chassis even stripped out.
88 Models have a bit more compression and a shorter 5th gear. Both of these mods can be updated to all other cars for 944 spec.
87-88 924S
These are hodgepodge cars. They used the Narrow 924 body with mechnicals from both the early 944 and late 944. Front suspenison is steel like the early cars, rear is aluminum like the 85.5-86 cars. The need to use the 52.3 mm offset wheels to fit under the narrow fenders, but their suspension parts are the same as the early offset cars. Engines are the same as the 87 and 88 944 and both years used the shorter 5th gear.
There are also some key things to look for
1. LSD - Optional in all years and hard to find on stock cars
2. Short 5th gear - Found only in 924S and 88 944, but can be retrofitted to all cars
3. Manual steering rack - Standard on 83 model year only, but some 83's had powersteering. This unit can be retrofitted to all 23.3 mm offset cars and 924S with little trouble. 52.3 mm offset 944's need to use special tie rods to use the manual rack.
4. Non sunroof - a few were made and certainly a nice to have, but not require at all.
5. 88 pistons 10.2:1. all others were 9.5:1 and 10.2's are nice, but after 5 years of racing it is still not clear 10.2's are really an advantage worth spending money on.
In the end here is my advice.
If you are a big guy (ie 200lbs+) getting a early car (83-85) or 924S is good as it may be easier to get to minium weight (2600lbs with driver).
Otherwise any year car will be fine. The performance of the car depends more on how well it is driven than what year it is. Pick the car that best fits you budget and what you plan to fix. I have bought "donor" cars from $350 to $1400. I tend to prefer the 83-85 or 924S cars. The reason is I started out with a wrecked 87 924S and wanted to build a race car. It make it easier to get an 84 chassis since more of the part matched exactly between the cars. There were alot of minor updates made from 85 to 85.5 and it is easier with parts cars to have the same part numbers. Even so I would not pass up a good deal on a later parts car either.
I started building my 944 back in 2000 with many of the same objectives as you have. Eventully that lead to racing in 2002 and getting in with 944 spec right when it started.
10-19-2007, 04:17 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
If I had an option, I'd go with the '88 model as they have higher horsepower and compression right off the assembly line, shorter 5th gear, improved fuel rail, and solid front spindles.
10-19-2007, 04:28 PM
#4
Herr Unmöglich
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When it comes down to it, either do really early (83-lightest, manual steering and sunroof) or really late (87+ are late offset wheels, 88 will have the better hp and tranny). Earlies have some cheaper consumables like steel control arms, and the shocks are inserts and not sealed units like the later cars... just easier to upgrade.
If you are lucky you can find an early car with fuchs and sell the wheels to pay for some of the other stuff you need.
If you are lucky you can find an early car with fuchs and sell the wheels to pay for some of the other stuff you need.
10-19-2007, 07:27 PM
#5
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Early cars are going to cost you less, weigh less, and have cheaper parts to replace (lots of VW parts in these cars). The '88 has 8hp more and a shorter 5th gear. Personally, I prefer the early cars because they typically offer more bang for the buck, and I can get it down to 944-Spec weight (2600 lbs) with a 200 lb driver and still retain everything I need to drive it on the street to and from the track... headlights, heater, power windows, etc.
10-19-2007, 08:28 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
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924S 
Its the lightest of the bunch, has the cheap VW front suspension, all of them have the short 5th, and you can still get the 88 motor. Slightly narrower track width, but you get a slight aero advantage. Plus the cars themselves are generally less desirable which means less money to buy one.
Its the lightest of the bunch, has the cheap VW front suspension, all of them have the short 5th, and you can still get the 88 motor. Slightly narrower track width, but you get a slight aero advantage. Plus the cars themselves are generally less desirable which means less money to buy one.
10-19-2007, 11:23 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
924S Its the lightest of the bunch, has the cheap VW front suspension, all of them have the short 5th, and you can still get the 88 motor. Slightly narrower track width, but you get a slight aero advantage. Plus the cars themselves are generally less desirable which means less money to buy one.
Its the lightest of the bunch, has the cheap VW front suspension, all of them have the short 5th, and you can still get the 88 motor. Slightly narrower track width, but you get a slight aero advantage. Plus the cars themselves are generally less desirable which means less money to buy one.
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10-20-2007, 12:41 AM
#10
Race Car
All year 944s and 951s are the same the same width as far as I know with only the 924S being narrower. The late cars have a slightly larger plastic tank versus a steel tank for the early car (some tend to crack and leak). The early cars have a transmission crossmember that is welded and part of the chassis so I would imagine its a little stiffer than the bolt on trans crossmember of the later cars. There is speculation that the later cars have a better oil baffle in the pan which makes it less prone to oil starvation in turns. The late cars have more expensive windshields than the early cars since early cars share the windshield with all year 924s. The strut inserts for the early car is a much easier replacement than the late hacksaw modification you have to apply to the later 87+ sealed struts. Also, early car may come with manual steering or it can be converted without changing the tie rods as with the late cars you will have to change the tie rods costing you more $. The later cars have a slightly thicker cylinder bore casting from what I can tell though I am not sure whether that is a significant advantage.
10-20-2007, 02:44 AM
#11
Burning Brakes
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Wow. Thanks guys. This is all great information; exactly what I was looking for.
I'm hoping to take a look at an 84 944 tomorrow(Sat) and I've found some other cars to look at this weekend too.
One idea I had was to get a car with nice interior and sell off the seats/carpet/etc to recoup some $ to use on perf parts, etc. Not sure what 944 seats and interior parts are going for on ebay, but selling em vs storing in my basement is definately a plus.
Right now I am really focusing on finding something in central ohio so I don't have to ship or transport it cross country.
Thanks everyone, will keep you all posted.
Tom
I'm hoping to take a look at an 84 944 tomorrow(Sat) and I've found some other cars to look at this weekend too.
One idea I had was to get a car with nice interior and sell off the seats/carpet/etc to recoup some $ to use on perf parts, etc. Not sure what 944 seats and interior parts are going for on ebay, but selling em vs storing in my basement is definately a plus.
Right now I am really focusing on finding something in central ohio so I don't have to ship or transport it cross country.
Thanks everyone, will keep you all posted.
Tom
10-20-2007, 02:19 PM
#12
Herr Unmöglich
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FWIW, you won't barely make enough money from interior pieces to cover your effort much less finance a build. Maybe a little bit here and there, but the main things people would want would be perfect seats (PITA to ship), cargo cover, and carpet. I have literally two boxes stacked full of interior crap from both my 83 parts car and my 87 track car and it just sits there.
IF you find a car pre-prepped for the track, that's the way to go. Saves so much time and bloody knuckles and cursing.
IF you find a car pre-prepped for the track, that's the way to go. Saves so much time and bloody knuckles and cursing.
10-20-2007, 02:49 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
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And more importantly, money. You can spend $4000 on a decent street car, and then another $6000 getting it ready for the track. Or you could just buy a car for less money thats ready to go and not have to worry about anything. If that 924 was for sale when I bought mine, Id have saved thousands of dollars compared to what I have in my car.