NEAL WRIGHT

Have a spare set of MSDS headers for sale. Never used. $175.00 incl shipping.

http://mall.rennlist.com/login/members/member_ads.htm

Todd157k

I think this is the link you want to use:

http://mall.rennlist.com/scripts/fea...uery=retrieval

NEAL WRIGHT

Yep, that's what I meant. Thanks

Mongo

Damn. I was looking for Bursch headers...

Andial951

Is this for an NA? Is there a siginficant HP increase? Any other benefit?

Mongo

Loss of torque, small gain of HP in upper RPM. Maybe 2 HP at the most.

NEAL WRIGHT

Mongo

"Loss of torque, small gain of HP in upper RPM. Maybe 2 HP at the most."

Do you have a dyno test to prove this? It is my understanding the headers will provide an increase in both tq and hp. Not a lot, but an increase over stock.

I'd like to see your data, since I'm no expert, backing up the claim of loss in tq.

The biggest advantage is they are new and make a good replacement if your NA stock ones are broken. They are also lighter if that matters to you.

Keithr726

If only they were that cheap for the 951

GodSpeed

Are the bursch headers better in any way than the msds headers?

ritzblitz

What does MSDS mean anyway?

NEAL WRIGHT

I personallty think MSDS are better than Bursch. I've owned both.

MSDS stands for Martin Schneider Design Systems

82-T/A

Just to add to this, the only way a header would cause a loss of torque is if the exhaust which compliments the header were of a larger diameter. The header, generally, only improves the flow of the exhaust gases, but does not always affect the amount of back-pressure. THAT is determined by the overall capacity of the exhuast's ability to evacuate. That's determined by pipe diameter, etc. While the tubing might be larger in general, it won't have any negative effect on the torque IF the exhaust piping that attaches to it is of stock size. All it will do is pretty much improve the flow throughout the entire rpms. It's really a win-win situation.

Now, if you take that header, and then attach a "dump" to it directly after it, then yes, you're going to lose a significant amount of torque.

However, if you take that, attach it to a relatively stock 944 exhaust with a nice, high-flow catalytic converter, you'll see an improvement in torque throughout the entire rpm range.

Considering the fact that this 4 cyl is a 2.5, that's pretty decent for being a 4 banger. If someone wanted to spend the time and money, I bet you could really build a screamer out of it by installing larger valves, bumping the compression a bit, and helping it flow.


Todd,
2006 Pontiac Solstice
2004 VW Beetle Convertible (Wife's)
2002 Ford Crown Victoria LX-P74
1987 Pontiac Fiero SE / V6
1984 Porsche 944
1981 Pontiac Trans Am WS6
1973 Volkswagen Type-2 Transporter

Mongo

Depending on the diameter of the piping after the header, this will cause a torque loss. The factory decided to opt for a 4-2-1 setup to provide effective scavenging that will yield good mid-range torque and power. Going into a 4-1 style header will provide better scavenging and flow in upper RPMs. I am not saying it's a bad header. I have seen some dyno sheets on spec cars that have had some loss of torque with little to no gain in upper RPMs. Someone on here used to have a link to these dyno sheets Neal.

Remember this though: A header on a 944 with software compatible with the header will YIELD AN INCREASE IN POWER. This is why headers are outlawed in Spec 944.

The Bursch vs. MSDS Debate:

This has been stretched not only from this board, but to Pelican Parts and other sub-forums that aren't as popular as Rennlist and Pelican. While people report improvements in exhaust flow for both, there has never really been any hard-information other than theory that one header is better than the other.

Based upon personal experience with a Bursch header, I lost about 2 ft.lbs. torque on a dyno with my 1984 944. Be advised that I also had a cone filter intake on this car at the same time. I did report a 4 HP gain at 5700 RPM. I never got the chance to scan the dyno sheet since i don't have a scanner at my home.

The Design that Best Suits Your Mods

MSDS:
The MSDS header would be recommended for cars that have mid-range to high end power. In my opinion, cars that have an upgraded camshaft such as Webcam and Milledge would best benefit from this header. Cars with individual throttle bodies and shortened runners that yield power increases in the upper end of the power band would also benefit from this too.

Bursch:
IMHO I would say this would be the best choice for a person who just has an exhaust system on his/her 944. It's a great street header that has the 4-2-1 design similar to the factory's exhaust manifold design. Combined with 2.5" piping and a low-restriction muffler, it may produce a minimal amount of HP while also allowing the engine to breathe a little better in upper RPM.


The Chip:

As I had said above, combining headers with a performance chip designed to optimize intake/exhaust gas flow, ignition timing, and air-fuel ratios will yield a power increase. While I never had the experience of combining a performance chip with a header and exhaust system, there are those out there that have (and unfortunately have not spoken up) claimed power increases both on the dyno and noticeably in driveability.


I hope this can clarify any information about headers on here. THERE IS NO BAD HEADER BETWEEN MSDS AND BURSCH REGARDING FLOW. IT JUST DEPENDS ON YOUR CAR'S POWERBAND.

944CS

You mean like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWppHQ5UWCk

UncleMaz

Just got them in the mail today. Thanks Neal. Pleasure doing business with you. Off to the muffler shop.