V2Rocket

I wear 14s

Once you get into driving stick, you don't even think about it anymore. Your timing between lifting the throttle, hitting the clutch, pulling to the next gear and letting the clutch out becomes natural and pretty constant. You'll notice that you can match it almost every time just by letting the engine slow itself.

V2Rocket

That Quattro video was IMPRESSIVE...that guy is amazing with his footwork.

By watching his feet he was doing alot of drifting

sillbeer

well, theres a difference. "double clutching" is where you take it out of gear, into neutral, and let the clutch out, then push the clutch back in and then shift into the next gear. this is common on older cars and 18 wheelers where they dont have synchros in the trannies. rev matching is different. I used to double clutch 2nd on my celica cuz sometimes it would grind going into gear if I tried to shift too fast. and no, I wasnt racing it

ausgeflippt951

You beat me to it -- thanks for letting everyone know of the difference between "double clutching" and "rev-matching." Double clutching is completely unnecessary for our cars or any transmission fitted with synchros.

Oh, and on a side note, in The Fast and the Furious when Vin D. chastises the main character after the initial drag race for "not double clutching like you should have" I just burst out laughing. Not only was it a complete and utter misuse of the word, but in those cars double clutching wouldn't have been needed regardless.


You should heel-toe and LFB as often as you can (circumstances permitting of course). I regularly heel-toe on the street (even though I find it easier w/ my size-13 feet to actually "ball-toe") and it's actually helped me avoid a couple accidents in the past.

I learned to heel-toe on my '05 cavalier -- now THAT is a piece of crap let me tell you.


As for not letting the transmission/clutch brake you, that's a subject of some small debate. In Europe (my experience is with the motherland herself -- Germany, as well as Austria, Switzerland, Belgium), they actually do not teach heel-toeing, but instead teach simply to let the clutch out and allow the engine to catch upon downshifting. It's not nearly as smooth but is much easier to learn. Personally, I don't typically allow the tranny to slow me down (other than allowing it to aid in slowing the car down while simultaneously braking...which is what happens when heel-toeing).

alordofchaos

Someone has this animated gif as their avatar; I snagged it because it is so cool:

Skip Wolfe

I find using the sides of my feet much easier with my size 13's - ball/big toe of my foot on the brake pedal and the right side of my foot to blip the throttle.

CarbonRevo

Umm...Double clutching not appropriate? How else are you going to shift your car into 2nd at 50mph? Double clutching speeds the input shaft of the transmission up so that the gears will synchronize better. What if your doing a 20mph roll against somebody? You'll tear the living **** out of your synchros over you time if you just force it in. Double clutch MUST be used if you're shifting into a gear at a high speed for that gear. Like 20 in first, 40-50 in second, 70-80 in 3rd...so on. My truck I drive won't even let me begin to push the stick into first at 15-17, but if I double clutch it, it goes in without any hard spots being felt through the shifter. Simply rev matching with the clutch in just speeds your motor up. I can understand rev matching if your at 35 in 3rd and need to go down to 2nd where the car will go into gear without too much wear on synchros...but if you're going higher then 35 or something down to 2nd...you need to spin the tranny up some; not just the motor.

Double clutching is VERY appropriate for ANY car when trying to get into a gear at "high speeds" for that gear. My truck runs out to 50mph in 2nd. There is NO way in hell I could just put the tranny into 2nd at 40. To even gain entrance to 2nd, I would have to double clutch to speed my synchros up to "fool" the transmission. Rev matching is then tied in with DC'ing as your spinning the motor up too. Go try and shift your car into 2nd at 50mph, let us know what happens! *rolling eyes*

Then after you tell us, do this: push clutch in, hit nuetral, release clutch, rev up to about 5k rpm, push clutch in, shift to 2nd gear, let clutch out. Let us know how much easier it is and how much better it feels through the shifter...

crooster

For downshifting there is no need to pause in neutral and release clutch - just clutch in, blip throttle (while shifting), clutch out. I don't need to force the gear change at all. I don't know what kind of tractor you are used to driving! ;-)

CarbonRevo

I learned on a toyota truck with no tach or anything. What do you think synchros do? Speeding the transmission up ALONG with the motor will save those synchros from the work. Just because you may not feel it, doesn't mean it's bad. I don't think you could get your car into 1st 25mph without double clutching. The synchros won't allow you. Why do you think you can't shift into 2nd at 80mph? The tranny KNOWS it can't synchronize that high. It helps to keep morons from blowing their transmission out. Granted you could slam the car into gear, but it's not safe for you or the car.

There's nothing wrong with double clutching to get your car into first at a 20mph roll. Simply rev matching won't do the trick...and if it does, have fun buying another tranny after a while!

Note: I'm talking of downshifting, not upshifting. Yes, double clutching IS pointless if you're just casually driving. I don't DC on EVERY downshift I do. If I'm going from 3rd at 30-35 to 2nd, I won't double clutch; the synchros do SOME kind of work. Now if I'm at 40-45 and wanting 2nd gear for a corner...then it's definitely a double clutch to get into 2nd gear. But for daily driving, going 50 in 4th to 3rd, not needed...50mph isn't high enough for 3rd gear to not allow you into that gear. 70-80...different story. Catching on now?

(stressing my point). My buddy Zach with his 5 speed 02 WRX (turbo back, 17lbs, crank pulleys, haltech etc. etc.) raced a regular cab silverado with full exhaust, gears, and a chip (it was auto). We were on a highway, 20mph roll. We had two other racers doing 20mph roll in front of us, so we had to wait some. Instead of riding in 20mph the whole time to the time we took off, we were in 2nd. When he needed to get into first when he slowed to 20, he tryed 2 times to double clutch into 1st at 20mph before he got it. Reving to 4k-5k each time trying to speed the tranny up enough to synchronize the rest of the way. Do you HONESTLY think he could have just revved his motor up and put the car in 1st? You DO realize reving the motor up with the clutch in only spins the motor...right? If you still want to gripe about this and myself being wrong. PM me, I'll give you his number and you can call him personally. Hell, we even have VIDEOS of it. 'Nough said?

crooster

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with double clutching, just that it isn't necessary for normal downshifting on street or track. Your examples are a bit strange and extreme IMHO - shifting into 2nd at 80mph - not sure why I would want to do that in the first place other that to break a motor.

CarbonRevo

Yes, I can agree for normal driving DC is a waste of time. Street and track are two different things. Track, I would hope you DC down into a gear for the corner...unless you stay in a higher gear and slow way down then put it into the gear you want when the trans will synchronize.

It was an example. Do you understand WHY you CANNOT shift into 2nd at 80? The tranny CANNOT synchronize THAT high (A Z06 vette probably can't even do it). The synchros only allow you to shift into a gear at no more then X speed. Transmissions normally won't let you shift into 1st at 35-40mph because it's the same example as 80mph in 2nd...it's too damn high. They help to keep from blowing your trans. At 20-25, it's still probably too high to just "casually shift" into 1st gear...but you can fool the trans. by reving the motor AND the transmission up together (thus the reason your car in nuetral, clutch out) and get it in, but it's hard.

Whatever, I'm done. I know who is right here. I have given my case. Keep up your act, and you'd better look for a trans.

crooster

Ummm. Been driving manual transmissions on street and track since 1980. On track nobody I know uses a double clutch, just heel & toe downshifting. Do you know what happens when you downshift to a lower gear in the examples you cite? You don't break the transmission - you tweek the motor!

CarbonRevo

The urge!

So you being older, makes you right I'm guessing? Some people.

Tweak the motor? A free rev (which is what it sounds like your doing-rev matching) would harm the motor much more then a rev with the trans. spinning. A free rev has absolute no load, where as a rev in nuetral clutch out has a load and is connected with the trans reving the same. My point here has been, go and try to shift your car into 2nd at 45-50mph and see how easily it goes in. Then double clutch it into 2nd at 45-50mph (if you can), and see how much easier it is.

Let me get this straight. If you want to go into second for a corner and your doing about 40-45 just before it, you simply grab the stick, rev your car up with cluth pedal to the floor, then stick it into gear? Or do you press the clutch pedal down, then stick it in gear, then rev up?

sillbeer

DCing mostly for upshifting although you can use it for down shifting too. We are just saying that for normal street driving, rev matching doesnt do any harm to the synchros or the tranny. The damage is done when the ring and pinion have to bear the brunt of slowing the car down on a downshift. When you rev match, everything is going the same speed, so when the clutch is let out, the engine is doing the slowing, not the R&P or the clutch/synchros/driveshaft etc...

martin944

Check this out, pretty good information.

http://www.waycoolinc.com/z3/essenti...e/shifting.htm