GTSilver944

I just put in Koni yellows and 220# stock height springs. The car is actually sitting higher than before, which is odd. But I managed to beat a moded S2 at an autox yesterday. My shocks/struts/springs made a world of difference in the corners, but it is slightly rough not so smooth roads.

fork_included

i keep hearing people talk about durability..

the bilsteins have a thicker shaft because they are monotube design, and are gas charged

the koni's are a twin tube design, and are oil filled

the koni's are in no way weaker than the bilsteins, forces required to damage a damper shaft will screw you up regardless of which one you use.

the rebound adjustment setting in the koni's is not really a novelty item, as a koni rep once explained to me, it is mainly there to increase the life of the shock, as rebound wears out faster than compression, so by tightning up the rebound now and then you can get more life out of them.

also keep in mind Bilstein HD's are for OEM heigh applications, they have a longer shaft than the otherwise Bilstein Sports, lowering is not recomended with the HD's, you will put them out of operating range, if you know ahead of time that you are lowing just go and get the Bilstein Sports.

J Silverman

They dont make bilstein sports for these cars. And Ive had horrible luck with Konis. On stock height cars, they would last a year or two. Also the quality control is not there in my experience. The bilsteins on my GTI felt brand new after 4 years of on track abuse. With that said Im going back to Konis because where I want to race thats what they spec.

fork_included

hey bro!

have you seen the custom ground control shock post over at vortex, forget spec, get yourself one of those!

Weston

Koni Yellows all the way. I don't know what you guys are talking about with durability... The comparison between size and durability is just blatant misinformation. They're race proven, and far from weak. They're also adjustable and have a lifetime warranty. I'm sure Bilsteins will be fine for the street, but there is a reason that they cost less.

fork_included

bilsteins are a race shock too, they are in no way worse than the koni's

life time warrenty doesnt mean they last a life time, anyone expecting their shocks to last a lifetime is fooling themselves, like i said, the rebound adjustment is simply there to hold a given setting longer, so when the rebound wears out a little you tighten it up.

what is important is matching a shock to a spring rate and height!! with the koni's this is easier than the bilsteins, so someone that puts the HD's in their cars when they are lowered 2" and have a 400lb rate, ofcourse they wont get the results that they wanted.

i suggest the OP avoid reading blanket statements, understand how an oil twin tube shock works, and how a monotube gas charged shock works, what sort of spring rate you are running, what you will use the car for, what sort of roads you have in your area and so forth.

buying either on a decision dictated soley by the voices of a couple enthusiasts is a recepie for disapointment.

M758

Stock off the shelf Koni yellows work just fine a 944 spec car and that sort of racing enviroment. There are many better shocks out there, but there is no reason to believe a Koni yellow will not work acceptably on light weight moderaly suspened 944 race car. In this enviroment stock Bilstein HD's have proven inferior. From a cost / performance basis the stock Koni Yellow is fine shock for our use.

greenshoes3

konis on all four corners, would never use anything else.......




except coil overs......

Weston

Not really. They're non-adjustable, and people in this very thread say they only handle up to 300 lb/in spring rates. To me, that says "street", not "race". But being that the OP wants a street application, they may be fine.

No, but it does mean that Koni will replace them if they have a problem. That wouldn't be very financially feasible for them if they sold crappy shocks.

No, it's not. There is a considerable difference between full soft and full stiff on a Koni Yellow, and that serves a useful purpose. The adjustability is not just there to compensate for wear... yes, I suppose you can use it for that, but that's not the reason that people buy adjustable shocks. In fact, I had never even heard of that explaination before, and I've been using Koni Yellows on the track for years.

Here is a shock dyno comparison of Koni Yellows at various settings vs Bilstein HD's, for a Mustang front application: http://www.koni-na.com/presentations...ng/slide9.html

(although it says Bilstein Sport, it's really the HD... that was explained in slide #3)

As you can see, the Bilstein (the red line) has a rebound that's about in the middle of the Koni's range, and the compression is considerably weaker than the Koni.

Here is their rear shock comparison: http://www.koni-na.com/presentations...g/slide19.html

Although the Bilstein's (light blue line) compression is comparable to the Koni in this one, the rebound is only in the low to mid range of the Koni's adjustment.

Their comparison with a Civic/Integra front application shows pretty similar results to the Mustang rear... http://www.koni-na.com/presentations/civic/slide7.html

There's no 944 or other p-car comparison that I'm aware of, but you can still clearly see that the Koni's rebound adjustment range does make a real difference, and it goes both stiffer and softer than the Bilstein, while compression tends to be stiffer or the same as the Bilstein. What the OP wants may still make the Bilstein a more appropriate choice, but I'm just trying to replace Internet hearsay with facts.

I agree.

Andy1212

What shocks can be used with lowering springs then?

Funn944

I use 250lb fronts springs with Koni sports all the way around. Lowered in front with Ground Control struts and in rear with the eccentrics. Didn't reindex torsions and it works very well. Rides firm, but not too harsh. Handles on track very well.

fork_included

the koni's rebound adjust range simply means that it is possible to mate it with a greater variety of spring rates, you never want to over dampen a spring anyway

compression rates are partialy relevant, primarily because the springs are what are supposed to do that! (the irony is that "shock absorbers" are incorectly defined, the springs absorb the shocks, the .. erm "shocks" are there to simply reduce occilations.

so again, with a koni yellow you are only winning out with the level of accomodation to spring rate, a koni yellow might handle more spring than a Bilstein HD but not all that much, ive ran a Yellow with a 500# spring on my VW and i deteriorated their performance very quickly.

i am not so much disagreeing with what you are saying in defence of the Koni, but at the same time you are giving the bilsteins some bad rep that they do not warrant.

J Silverman

Im assuming you are talking about the Advance design stuff? It sure looks nice! But after talking to Geo on here who is building an ITS 944 I would go with Bilstein Race struts. They stopped making them for the 924/944 so Id have to use rabbit parts and get them revalved. The rears are basically NASCAR shocks valved for my car, but I kind of like the idea of running 944 spec which uses Koni yellows so its a tough decision.

Neither of the two shocks we are talking about is a true race shock. The only reason people use the koni yellow in spec racing is because it can handle the springs. If you take the valving out of the equation (i.e. run equivalent valving on the two shocks) the bilstein will out perform the koni. This is because the monotube damper will react more quickly to inputs. In addition the monotube design is less prone to shock fade which is why even koni uses it on their real race shocks.

Want to learn more than youll ever need to know about shocks? Go here:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1648157&page=1

M758

The Koni yellow is a spec shock for 944 spec because it has many good features.

They are redially available, resonably priced, and work reasonably well given the class spring rate limitations. Remember 944 spec is not about absolute peformance, but about low cost, performance and equality.

It is quite hard to go faster in an 2.5L 8valve NA 944 without spend more money or putting alot of time and effort in developing or sourcing "special" parts.

If your goal is to go at putz around on the track a Koni yellow will work fine. If your goal is to be the fasted car on the track then spend the money on better shocks.

J Silverman

That didnt come out as I had intended. I should have said: The reason that everyone in 944 spec uses the Koni yellows as opposed to the bilsteins is because they can handle the spring rates that everyone is running. If the bilsteins could handle 400#/30mm bars people would use them. They are just as readily available, cost less, in my experience last longer, and side by side will have a slight edge on twin tube konis. THe only downside is that they arent adjustable, but adjustability is one more thing for me to mess up! I prefer the bilsteins, but Ill be running 944 cup as a spec car, so konis it is. Im just trying to find someone that can dyno match them before they sell them to me.