Tom R.

I feel the same way about just about any old car. My neighbor has a RAV4 with about 130k on it that he wants to get a little over 3k for. I looked at it and thought to myself what if i took off the bumper guards, cleaned this etc. then reality set in, if anyone wants it, PM me. in the end it is just an old car good for basic transportation.

Then there was the 1957 Continental Mk II white, white leather with red biscuits. It cost more than a Rolls in 1957. It had only about 30k miles on it. I had some rust around the headlights. I contacted and joined the LCOC and learned i would be buying it from the original owner. I also learned it had to be started in other than park.

then reality set in. Even though I could have gotten it for a mere $1,500 and restored it would be worth north of $40k....... In the end, it was just a rusty pile of junk rotting in a garage with a tree of substantial girth growing in the middle of the driveway.

apen749

Tom,

The use of the word "Junk" has really struck a nerve with a lot of people here. This was just as bad as using the N word or hating Gays. For a person who calls his car junk, you must really be having a reality breakdown to have posted over 6200 times on a Junk crazed site. You probably should seek some rehab for anger. This is the going thing to do now. If it bothers you to own some junk, I'll give you a few dollars for your junk. Don't expect much because it's just junk right. Our cars are not investments. It's a desire. Maybe you should change your interest to something you else.

Lee

potent951turbo

Tom R.

Apen 749/Lee

I will respond to your inane and insane reply point by point.

My term Junk may have struck nerves. Too bad if facts strike nerves! Try to point out where my facts are incorrect. Actual sales would be nice to support your position. I have actual advertisements to support mine.

I am offended that you can make an analogy between an old car and a "fighting word", the gay part I wont even get into having lived on christopher street for a number of years.

Reality breakdown? Citing facts is 180 degrees from a reality breakdown.

Rehab for anger? If i struck nerves of other people as you stated two sentences earlier, who is the angry one? I certainly am not angry.

It does not bother me to own junk. in fact a few weeks ago I owned three 944s, and all three ran. today i own two 944s. The shell of the turbo is in excellent condition, yet i paid a lot less than the POs receipts for the last 10k miles.

Every one of the five 944s I own/have owned were bought to drive, not to restore, or fantasize will appreciate as an investment! Feel free to continue to attack my use of the word junk.

Our cars are not investments. Hallelujah !!! YES!! YES!! Yes, that is the only correct thing you stated. If they were investments, they would not be classified as junk from an investment perspective.

Maybe i should change my interest to something else. any suggestions? perhaps i should study valuation techniques. wait, i am already accredited in that from the aicpa.

have a nice day Lee, and welcome to rennlist.

VinsBalticBlueS2

Wow.. what an awesome thread. I just had to bring it back to life. Tom R.. I'm sure you've been told before that you should be a writer. Not so much for your elegant prose... but more so for your aggressive flow and multiple angles of communicating a single issue. You are absolutely right in MY HUMBLE OPINION regarding the soundness of an investment in a 944. Very few cars would pass that sniff test. However I would submit that a 'collectible car' is something quite different. Many people choose to collect things that will never yield profit. Yet they keep on collecting them. Often tiring of their given hobby. Usually selling their entire collection.. where as a whole they have spent much much more on said hobby than they will yield from that final sell off. However the individual selling price of many of those collectible items will go for more than the original price.

Similarly if I sold my S2 today, I would not even set the price at an equivalent to what I have put into the car. Therefore it is truly JUNK in terms of an investment.

However I would most certainly be contacted by people from near and far reaching proximities who would express interest in buying it. There is indeed a market for sound 944's. There does exist a niche of die hard appreciators of the aesthetics, performance and overall engineering of these cars. We are all evidence of this. As with many collectibles the vast majority of a population would not see or appreciate a 'value' to a given object. That's where the ENTHUSIAST comes into play. If a niche market is fervent, it doesn't matter how small the niche, or how stupid the investment. Over time you will see the base value of that collectible object creep north. As the market slowly grows. And the supply slowly diminishes. Sound examples, even those short of #1 examples will see incremental gains in value. Of course that can collapse if a supply is suddenly introduced(not relevant with a 944), or a market evaporates(not likely with lively posts and communities like Rennlist!).

Refer to the current edition of Excellence on newstands. The 924/944 market report is very comprehensive. An inflection point that is very similar with other small niche collectibles appears to have been reached in recent years.... Initially an object in a crowded demographic will depreciate to a base level. Often the base level will not be established until the production of the object has been curtailed for a significant period of time. This time period often separates the utilitarian user from the ENTHUSIAST. Based on years of data, a current market report, and a healthy, albeit finite enthusiast community, I agree with the conclusion of the Excellence article on 944 market value. The sound examples of the 944 are in fact appreciating in base value. And as the utilitarian 944 owner becomes more and more rare... AND more 944's are parted out(it's inevitable no matter what one thinks).. the appreciation process will continue. Short term peaks and valleys are assured as in any market. BUT remember this is not an INVESTORS market! It's a very small, yet stable Collectors market that is bolstered by enthusiasts like us who love these cars for the value we derive, not the positive yield that we will never see.

So how about we all part friends and thank Tom for spiriting such a freaking entertaining thread? And Tom.... How about you concede a separation between Investment and Collectible?

VinsBalticBlueS2

Postcript:

The earlier cited Sports Car Market Report article 'Affordable Classics' was published in October of 2003. At that time SCM rated the Porsche 944 as a 'D' rated investment. The current SCM price guide continues to rate the 944 as a 'D'. Hence affirming Tom R's assertion of the 944 as a 'Junk' investment.

However the October 2003 valuation range was 4K Low to 20K High. The 2007 valuation range iconfirms stabilized depreciation with the same 4K Low valuation, while an appreciated value of 23K was documented for the High end of the range.... Affirming my position stated in the posting above in regards to the nature of niche collectibles.

That's two respected sources (current Excellence issue & the SCM reports) supplying supporting data to affirm a separation of Investment and Collectible.

Cheers,

Tim

KY944S

Maybe I should sell my 944s and get a Vette

ClassJ

All I will end with is the following. My point mainly is that while I will agree whole heartedly that the 944 market is weak, I do not see vast differences in market value between 944's and 911's per say. Or many other cars.

A select handful of cars (relative to the number of models produced over the past 100 years) are actually considered to be collectible and demand 40-50K restored, even with these so called collector cars, it is near impossible to restore a car to a perfect level and profit or even break even off of its sale.

Even while 911 values are higher, you still cannot buy a 911 at current market value in poor condition, restore it perfectly, and make money on the sale.

There just are not many cars out there you can do that with. I have restored cars for a living in the past, dad still does to some extent. People lose money when they sell cars they have restored every day. Cudas, GTO's, 65-67 vettes, porsches, etc etc.

Sometimes you can come out ahead if you bought the car for well below market, did not go all out on the resto, did the work yourself, waited a couple years for the market to rise a bit, then sell it. But usually after you figure in your labor, you would have remarkably fared better working the several thousand hours at night part time in home depot.

But, a hobby is a hobby, and the enjoyment I at least get out of wrenching on cars is far more valuable.

Tom R.

I would be glad to concede a separation betwen investment and collectible if it didnt mean i had to concede logic and reality. if the earth was flat i would concede your point. agreeing the earth is flat is agreeing to something that is incorrect, just as your statement.

to be a collelctible it has to have an intrinsic value. the 944 does not have that IMHO - which is based on facts. An investment by definition is made with the hope or belief there is a potential increase in value, or a potential increase in value that is greater than the risk associated with said investment compared to a safe investment. I do not believe the 944 has that either. there are much better cars to park your money in hoping they will appreciate.

Yes the top may have gone from 20K to 23K. But that top is for number 1 virgin time capsules. again, as stated in my first post of this pathetic thread i said the vigin time capsules will probably appreciate. However, the 32K mile multiple award winning S2 feteched all of 16.5k as posted right here on rennlist a few months ago. there were only 3,000 S2s made, hence the S2 is one of the more "collectible" 944s, and as such should be the top car. perhaps an 88 turbo S or 89 turbo is more collectible. if so, is it worth 50% more? I dont see it.

a car that is not a virgin time capsule - as a car to put in your garage as a collectible i again say no. it will cost more to get the car into number 2 condition than you could sell it for, and a restored car is usually worth less than a virgin time capsule (other than cars with racing history).

so again i say the 944 is junk as an investment, and junk as a collectible.

i also think the uptick from 20 to 23k is because a lot of the cars getting the higher numbers today had a lot of "maintenance" done. see my earlier post. the shell is worthless or junk and the value is in the work done.

other than that we agree on everything else i guess.

VinsBalticBlueS2

Nice Tom.. true to form. Your 'humble opinions' become fact the more words you type... :-)

My statements are simply factual based on data and do not hinge on assumptions as yours do. You just don't have a conceding bone in your body. I rather like that. Hat's off to ya.

The 944 is most definitely a crap investment. The appreciation factor is recent and will never out strip the realities of the money vacuums they are. My statements are not deductions of logic. Deductions of logic are easily manipulated with crafty false syllogisms. You're most definetly a master of such.

However they are most certainly collectible. As with most collectibles many of a given object 'type' are not AS collectible... ie. the basic N/A vs. the S2 or the Turbo S. Production numbers do play a factor in the collectibles appeal. But there are many factors. Hence the 1989 S2 is not as 'valuable' as a 1989 Turbo even thought there were only 970 of the S2's brought into the US versus 1385 of the Turbo. The appeal of the 247 hp testerone inspiring Turbo continues to draw more 'collectors' However, I was happy to see that Excellence cited a jump in value of $1000.00 from '05 to '06 for the 89 S2.

The Princeton Dictionary(which is the worldwide academic standard) is cited below

Noun

* S: (n) collectible, collectable (things considered to be worth collecting (not necessarily valuable or antique))


So Tom.... please note the word 'considered'... This is a subjective word. All it takes for something to be a collectible is for an individual to be find worth in collecting it. So the FACT is that multiple people consider the 944 WORTH collecting for a number of reasons...This is inspite of the fact that they absolutely do not pencil out as an investment. Don't forget Princetons qualification in it's definition that a collectible does not neccessarily have to be Valuable or Antique.

If you continue to refuse to concede a separation in the terms 'Collectible' and 'Investment'... and you attempt to debate my facts with your false logic then I'll just have to leave you to your ego trip. You're obviously not an idiot. However, You are most definitely blinded by your stubborness and your seemingly boundless pride in what you have decided is your superior intelligence. I'm not in the business of discounting ones intelligence. IQ will take a person only so far. I learned that the hard way by forgetting that wisdom trumps cerebral horsepower when I was a pup in my 20's

But then again... you're surely having a blast flexing your sophomoric rhetorical skills. Many on this board have taken offense to your ramblings. This is something that you obviously derive a diabolical measure of joy from. Good for you. Have fun.

VinsBalticBlueS2

PS- How long ago were you looking at the MkII? The current SCM price featured a little nugget on them stating that they are one of the very few out there that will be finally seeing their value appreciate to a level representative of their place in auto history. They target a value of 75K to 100K which is a huge jump. If the one you saw was indeed restorable it actually might pencil out. Just a thought.

Tom R.

not going into the rest of your arguments. my conclusions are based on facts, call it what you like. agree to disagree.I saw a blurb in scm or one of hemmings magazines discussing the continental. unfortunately the mkII is another "collectible" that even at 75k will cost more to restore than can be realized. i was supposed to get it for $1,500 back in 97. the only problem is most parts are made of unobtanium, and some of the vendors had/have sketchy reputations. repro parts dont exist like they do for say a f body. i was glad i didnt get it when all was said and done.

VinsBalticBlueS2

Yeah I had no idea when it was you saw the MKII, or the condition it was in. Just curious.

I think the thread has taken so many forms and the original arguement started with a debate over whether is was good to part old 944's. I agree that very often if the profit can be had by parting them, then more power. Bidness is Bidness. I also agree that Investment wise 944's are junk.

But dude... Collectible and Investment are two separate words that have evolved from two entirely different origins in the english language. There's a reason for that! They're two separate things... period. Fact. Look it up in the dictionary.

I think you were distracted by your defense of the term Junk in general, and you've been boxed into a debate corner where you're hoping to bow out unscathed. Instead of ducking and swinging your way back to the center of the ring where you can spar over your original pretense, you just kept slugging away with that left hook... But fact is fact... two different definitions for two different terms.. Uppercut... K.O.

Good luck in your next bout.

;-)

ClassJ

So how is that different from a 944 or 95% of the cars out there?? The numbers are different but the story is the same.

The other thing to be considered here is that with cars that are not highly prised it is generally the cost of the restoration that usually drives the asking prices of classic automobiles up. With 944's/968's out there availible as young as 12 years old right now, the market has simply not grown for them yet.

Even the "coveted" muscle cars of the 60's were all fetching peanuts in the late 70's and their prices did not start to truly climb to noticible levels until the mid-late eighties

Being that there are still ALOT of nice 944's and 968's out there that have been garage kept and babied (relitive to say other more normal cars of the era) and can be purchased relitivly cheap. Hence there is no reason to completely restore a 944. The "bargin" cars out there right now are indeed the virgin cars that are fetching 10-14K. No one is going to pay you for the 944 you restored to a perfect level for a cost of 40K dollars when they can go on cars.com and find a 30K mile example for under 15K dollars.

However, what generally happens is that at some point, other than the top garage queens, all 944's will need restoration of some type. The cost to restore a 944 will drive the price somewhat. So as long as someone out there wants a 944 in their garage, the cost to own one will inevitably rise.

And I do believe that as a collectable, 944's still are a somewhat desirable car. They are good looking sports cars that perform rather well. Compared to other cars availible in the mid eighties the later 944's were leaps and bounds better. Even the 911's of the time were somewhat crude in comparison at least by my standards.

If you asked me to give a list of cars from the mid-late eighties that may be collectable one day, the 944 would sit above many other cars on that list.

Bart

And I believe that would be checkmate! Nicely done!