Tom R.

i wonder if the prices went up because the cars value went up, or because a lot of the cars sold a few years ago were ready for some major work, and now that the work was done to many of the cars sold the price went up.

If I get my 5700 asking price for my 89 NA it will set the standard for a NA. But in reality I will have gotten only about 1500 for the car becasue 4000 was just put into it. But if i tried to sell it before the work I would probably have gotten 3000 quick. so in reality the car went down in value over the last nine months, but the article would show it went from 3000 to 5700.

it is fun playing with numbers all day.

I paid about half what the PO put into my 951 over the last 100k miles, so an argument can be made that his car was worth negative thousands of dollars when he started to put money into it.

fpena944

How come you guys get your magazines so early?!? I'm still waiting for mine!!!

Wipeout

Tom, that's perhaps the best point I've seen made yet. If you play with the numbers long enough, you can say whatever you want.

Now, in my mind, a smart person who didn't want to do tons of work to a car would look at Tom's NA and go "sweet! I don't have to do all the replacements/work, it's already done! That's worth more!" Instead, it seems like people go "why spend 5700 when I can get one for xyz?"

I wish I knew how much mine was purchased for...even though it was a "graduation present" for college, I don't have the title (so I guess that would make it my parents' car). I'm glad I have a ride!

jsaindc

They qucikly learn the error of their ways.

For all of the reasons stated we can not look at a printed value for our cars...they are more guides. I paid too much for my S2 on paper; however, it is the car I was looking for and the condition I wanted so it was a fair deal to me. We get only pennies on the dollar for what we put into the car and any appreciation in value is eaten up by these costs and the rise in living costs so I still say they are depreciating. Tom, spot on!

TheRealLefty

Interesting concept...being upside down in a car because of the refurb/upgrade expenditures vs. resale value. Depends on how you look at it.

If you consider a car an equity investment, you can certainly end up on the short end if you sell at the wrong time...as discussed above, you can put $4K in to make an NA worth $5K, but you could have gotten $2.5K for the car without the work. So, yes, a seller has to be careful when deciding whether they are better off selling a car with or without work.

But, when viewed from the perspective of "marginal utility", investing in a 944/951 really does take on a whole different light. What is the comparable cost of having a dependable sports car built with German engineering that will go 0-60 in 5 and half seconds, hit 160 mph, generate more than .9 G's on the skid pad, turn ricer's heads on the street and rip off 1:22's at Summit before you drive it home ! Priceless.

Having a couple of grand more in the car than you can sell it for becomes somewhat unimportant, huh?

Kevin Baker

One more perspective on this point. I paid $1500 for my 86 n/a almost 4 years ago, then promptly put $3K into it to get it to a reliable daily driver condition. I still need to paint $1K- ? do some interior reconditioning $750-1K. At that I'd have $6500 in a car worth between 4-5K. Take into consideration that I've driven for 4 years and I'd still come out ahead versus a $300-400/month car payment.

TheRealLefty

Bingo, negative equity against "market value" doesn't matter a hoot if you compare the performance, reliability and build quality of these cars against other cars costing much, much more.

M758

I bought my 88 Turbo S in Feb 1997 for 12.5k.

Now that same 88 Turbo S is easily worth 10-12k and I have done is put 40k miles on it and standard maintinence. I never bought the car for an investment in 1997. I bought it for fun and I have had alot of fun with it. Now 10 years later it value has hardly dropped off at all. That seems like a pretty good deal. I still have no plans to sell since it STILL is the best performance value Porsche out there.

89AZ944

TheRealLefty -

The real question is equimarginialism for the buyer AND the seller (what each is willing to give up to meet MC=P) and the "jolts" from the Utils that both parties are experiencing for the transaction.

I feel that when it comes to our cars, the ROI beats the ROE any day of the week. The investment is a direct reflection of not only pure money investment but time also has to be taken into account and that has a profound effect on what WE value our cars to be, while the equity is what others view our cars to be worth.

In a sense, the 944 market is moving to a more pure monopoly economic model as more and more of these cars are being sold between owners and fewer are making it on the used car lots. The sense of valuation and SE (in this case private owner vs. used car lot) is shifting and the market is reflecting the increase in price and this should lead to greater economic profits.......

Or am I just blowing smoke........

I have finals in two weeks and it scares me that I am starting to look at things this way.....

Kevin Baker-

I used your monthly cost example with my wife when I got this car - Paid cash, the insurance is less and as long as I did not exceed a set monthly car payment amount, I could keep it. The only thing that has blown my budget was having to redo the head gasket after loosing coolant.

Dollar for dollar I feel that I have many more utils out of this car than the pickup truck I was eyeing.

Sorry for the long post.....

Brad E.
89AZ944

Tom R.

Montly payments. Ha. funny that should be brought up. I paid a lot more per month for my 89 S2 that was stolen and was out of commission a lot than I did to lease my 04 GTO. Not only did my GTO have 150 more hp.....

But that isnt the point of this thread. Did the values really go up, or are the current values reflective of work that was recently done to the cars?

M758

944 values are flat. Any time you see a $500 increase in 5-15k cars it all depends on the same used. Lets say a bunch of nice cars sell then the average can go up a bit. A bunch of clunker's sell and the average goes down. What I can see clearly is that the 944 market is flat. Trend it out and you see small gains one year and small losses the next. If the values were increase you would see either large jumps or a steady 500 to 1000 increase year over year.

Stan944

exactly!

KLR

I just got my Excellence today and took a look at the market values section. Sure enough, the text appears to be literally identical to that of the previous several years. The commentary essentially self destructs with the first 9 words, "Most of these Porsches continue to depreciate in value...." This would be a great observation, except for the fact that every single car listed except for the 968s has appreciated consistently for the last three years.

In reality, you have to take his numbers with a substantial grain of salt, but the general trend is certainly upward. The numbers for specific years don't seem to make much sense at all. In example, 1978 924s are somehow worth 20-30% more than their 1977 and 1979 stablemates. Non-S 1988 turbos are also somehow worth far more than 1987 turbos, even though they are identical cars. However, 1987 turbos are barely worth more than 1986s in Bruce's numbers, even though the 87s are significantly improved and far less plentiful. I assume that this is a sampling issue, but who knows?

DanG

One of my favorite episodes ever.

UDPride

Bruce Anderson is loco and has been for years.

He has 86 951s in excellent condition at the high end at $11,000.

Ive seen stock 951s with 65,000 miles Id pay $15,000 for and never think twice. A 2cm crack in the corner of an otherwise perfect dash, is a $600-1000 problem. Add 4-5 more mickey mouse items like that you are $5,000 in the hole already. Might only cost you $1500-2000 more up front to buy the car already with as-new condition items. Always cheaper to pay up front. Pennies on the dollar.

For $15,000 the performance of these cars given the vintage is remarkable. In 1986 the 951 was the fastest production car in the world for sale in the US (I think). I may eat my words but if you have a good unmolested 951, keep it. I think they will end up like 914-6s.

Lets face it, the people who bought 944s and 951s werent the same dudes who bought 911s and 928s. Different economic segment. The 944/951 people drove these cars harder b/c more of them were daily drivers. Which means more got wrecked. More owners didnt have the neverending bank account to do all the maintenance on them either so a large portion were neglected and turned to turds.

The numbers are thinning out and thinning out quickly.