dnwong

Finally got my 86 951 on the road. I was a litte disappointed in the way the car handles. All this pent up expectations... The car does not handle as well as I thought it should for such as low car. The car sway a little. The suspension seems soft yet when it hits bumps it feels harsh. I know the car has 20 year old technology, but my bmw 530i with a sport suspension seems so much better (firm but not harsh).

So, what can I do to improve the ride (m30 sway bars?) and new shocks or do I need new springs too. I like to do this as cheaply as possible and would like to fix whatever will give me the most impact for the money.

Z-man

Your shocks are probably tired.

Paragon sells a Koni coil-over kit for your front strut assembly. If you only drive the car on the street, go with a 200-ish lb springs with the coil over kit. (And get fresh Koni inserts as well).

For the rear of the car, you can go with Koni yellow sport shocks, but don't set them too stiff - somewhere between full soft and middle should work. Also - if the rear of the car appears to sit real high, then check the eccentric bolt (I think). Loosening this will allow the rear of the car to drop to ROW bumper height. (US Spec cars had to have the rear end up higher due to US bumper height regulations).

Also for the rear - get a 968 M030 19mm rear sway bar - set it to full soft first and adjust from there. Keep the front swaybar stock.

That said, which the front McPherson strut design, you will always have some body roll. But be rest assurred - everything beneath the body should be working just fine... Once you get used to the body roll/lean, you'll be surprised at how well your car handles.

That should get you started...
-Z-man.

phil0618

I'm not an expert in Porsche's or suspensions so you'll get more informed input from others, but my 968 has 200 lb springs in front that lower the car 1.5 inches, rides on 17 inch rims, has Weltmeister sways and Koni yellows. All the work done by the previous owners. I think if I were doing the work I'd start with new shocks and sways and skip the springs to keep the ride a bit nicer.

I also have a 5 series and my observation is that the Porsche is louder and harsher. However, I think there is a relationship between those two things. If the car is noisier I think it also 'seems' harsher. The BMW is a tremendous car as it really does combine luxury (quiet, nice seats and interior) with performance. I love the 5 series. The Porsche simply gravitates more to the performance end of the spectrum - noiser, lighter and should handle very well. I"ve worked hard on quieting the car and moved from 18 inch rims to 17 inch rims to soften the ride and I think that given the differing characters of the car I've got the Porsche as close to luxury sport GT as I can. If I want the car to be more luxurious or ride any different I think I'd be better off selling it and buying something newer. Some things just can't be changed.

On the other hand, I love the 968 for what it is - a damn good looking, superb handling car that I don't see at every stop light.

When going through the twisties in the Porsche it should feel like it's on rails in a way that the BMW won't. So chance are a refreshening of the suspension is in order.

Good luck,

Phil

skene

I've got 200lb springs in the front and Koni yellow's all around. The rear are set to mid stiffness and the fronts are 1/4 from soft. I've also got 26.8mm bar in the front and an 18mm one in the back and the car is lowered a bit. It pushes a little in daily driving, but with a bit of gas that goes away nicely.

I work out in Chantilly, so if you want to drive it sometime to compair it to your car just let me know and we can work out a time.

dnwong

Can anyone comment on the 27mm front sway bar vs the 30mm. Will get a real harsh ride with the 30mm? I think the stock 86 951 use a 24mm bar.

Z-man

dnwong - A rollbar won't give you a harsher ride - but it will effect your car's balance (understeer/oversteer). If you go too still up front, your car will have a lot of understeer, which is something most folks don't want.

-Z.

M758

Do shocks first then drive it a again

I have an 88 Turbo S - Stock and a 530i with sport stock as well.

the 88 Turbo S is a little softer at initial turn in, but in general stiffer. It is also a bit harsh at times.

Now I believe that is due to the shocks being the old 18 year old 130k+ mile ones. The BMW is really softer, but with fresher shocks fells stiffer at initial turn in.

Change to new shocks in the 86. If that does not do it then consider 944 Turbo S sways (26.5mm and 18 mm). If that still does not work consider springs.

xsboost90

200lb springs arent going to make it ride hard...hell 250 prob wouldnt either. You should have some 25.5mm bars on there already..not 24. Drive it w/ the new shocks and perhaps 200lb springs and decide if you need the sways-prob. wont.

dnwong

Actually, I was looking on Clarks garage, and they say the sway bar is 22.5 for an 86 951. Am I missing something?
http://www.clarks-garage.com/shop-manual/susp-15.htm

skene

Clarks garage is right on. My car had 22.5 in the front and 18 in the back. I picked up the 26.8 front and 16mm back bar from a crashed late model car.

Porschefile

The spring rates are not what's causing the stiffness, it's the Koni's. They have constant compression valving which results in a bumpy and sometimes rough ride. IMO, Koni yellow sports have crappy valving out of the box. Despite what some might think 200-250# spring rates are NOT stiff for the weight of most of our cars (2600-3100lbs). Most more modern dampers tend to use digressive valving, which generally provides a much more comfortable ride and can provide better overall performance. Unfortunately the only more modern options we have are JIC, KW, or some of the even pricier race setups (Motons, JRZ, etc).

Go for a ride in a car with some nice digressive coilovers and you'll see what I mean. A friend's 240sx (only 2700lbs as opposed to my 2900lb 951) with 436# front springs and ~360# rear on Tein coilovers was 10x more comfortable and rode much smoother than my simple Koni yellow and Welt 250# front setup. Valving is a huge factor, though it is generally overlooked and sort of a black art. For those that do care, Koni will revalve their dampers to your specs, for specific spring rates, etc and I believe they can also convert regular Yellow sports to double adjustable. These things will help ride quality a bit, though it won't be up to the standards of a good digressive valved damper.

If you want to keep it simple, do 968 M030 sways, Koni yellows and 250# front springs. If you are the type to constantly fiddle with your suspension, I'd suggest getting the Paragon coilover conversion kit to begin with and upgrade your TB's if you can afford it. Koni's may not have the most comfortable valving, but anything is better than weak a$$ blown suspension!

Serge944

Porschefile is correct. Spring rates don't affect ride nearly as much as damper valving.

Just consider how many modern electronically adjustable suspensions function (ie sport mode, etc).

Porschefile

I've found from my own experience that just 200# or 250# springs are not stiff enough for the stock valving in Koni yellows for our cars. Because of this mismatch, they tend to be alot more bumpy and rough. I went with the Paragon ARHK and 400# springs. IMO the car actually rides better as the valving is better equipped to handle the higher spring rate, so the valving/spring rate is a better match (still not perfect though).

At 400#, I think it is a little rough for street use to some people (again, mainly from the valving), though I love it. Somewhere between ~300-350# should probably be a pretty decent compromise for street/track use while still maintaining a certain comfort level. Another benefit of stiffer springs is they will help eliminate much of the body roll and nosedive inherent with our cars on 250# or less spring rates. On top of this, with stiffer spring rates (300#+) you can turn the dampening down softer as the stiffer rates will keep the car under control much better. Despite all of this, I personally don't think a Koni yellow will ever provide quite the perfect balance of performance and comfort as a digressive valved shock will. You can convert to double adjustable, revalve, etc and it will get you closer, though it will still be constant compression.

It sounds to me like alot of people here on the 944 forums are compensating for the lack of spring rate by turning their stiffness up on their Koni's. I've been told this by many experienced racers, and I tend to believe it, that stiffening your dampening to limit suspension travel is not the proper way to go about things. Technically, the springs are supposed to do a majority of the work and dampening adjustments are used to fine tune this.

Come on guys, start using some manly spring rates! "Manly" can best be described as the ride quality of a covered wagon! j/k

Z-man

Is 400lb front / 31mm hollow torsion bar rear MANLY enough for you?

If not, then add to the mix a front M030 sway, a Welt 22mm rear sway.

Still not enough?

Ok then - how about Racer's Edge Camber plates & Kokeln A-arms up front, Delrin torsion bar bushings, solid tranny and torsion bar housing mounts in the back.



Oh, and I do agree with what you're saying - my Koni's (stock - NOT revalved) work just fine with my 400 lb springs. Going full stiff EVERYWHERE can lead to a very ill-handling car. They are set to somewhere around the middle mark - haven't played with them at all. (Rears are set a little softer than medium). Car is driven primarily on the track, but does get to see some street use as well.

-Z-man.

Serge944

You can argue valving all day - there is no formula for the ideal setting. Just start with an inexpensive set-up (like koni yellows) and work your way from there until you are happy.

Unfortunately, most people don't know how to use the adjustment properly and would be better off with a fixed valving. "My car barely squats under acceleration since I put my konis on full hard."