User 41221

If you've got stock sport seats and a stock safety belt set up and you are still sliding around, then you need to make the jump to a fixed racing seat with properly engineered harnesses. I am firmly in the camp that says don't run aftermarket harness with stock seats, but thats just my opinion.

I'd hate to see anyone get hurt at an event that is supposed to be fun. Please take the time to investigate this topic a bit if you are thinking about harnesses, and make an informed decision based on something more than just opinions on an internet forum (and thats not a flame directed at anyone posting in this thread, by the way... this thread has given lots of good info, imo). Safety is too important.

Regards,

Rock

Geo

[QUOTE=Skip Wolfe]Also aren't you supposed to essentially sit on the crotch belts and have them mounted back by the lap belts? From what I understand, the 6 points were developed for open wheel cars that didn't have the clearance to mount a sub belt below the seat.

They do make add on sternum straps for use with a seat without locating slots.

QUOTE]

Skip, you are correct, the propermounting points for 6pt harness sub straps back by the lap belt mounting points. Think parachute rig straps.

DO NOT get a sternum strap. They are dangerous. Sled testing by Doc Melvin (the foremost authority on driver safety in the US) has determined through sled testing that sternum straps are more likely to cause further injury.

Dr.Porsche

Just thought I would chime in here.... as I have recently done the whole seat/harness thing. I know that the belts feel tight when strapped in..they really do keep you held to the seat..however, imagine a rear impact. The seat will actually accelerate rearwards, therefore loosening the belts off of the shoulders. I have recently gone to several tech sessions on this subject. One of which was with the guy who helped develope the standard for F1, Indy, and CART. One of the things I definitely remember is that the chest cross brace (I think Simpson is the only one to have this) is very frowned upon.

The sub-belt issue is very complicated, as far as sitting on vs. through the holes. Depends on maker of the seat to sanctioning body. There is actually one manufacturer who makes holes in the rear of the seat for the subs to go through. Oh, and apparently the sub belts reduce the pressure on the CHEST in a collision..who knew.

I also suggest a mounting bracket for the seat with a double latch on the slider. Most have this now, Corbeau has it as an option.

xsboost90

could you mount the sub belt just behind the seat, and tuck it between the upper/lower cushions of the seat, sit on it, and then plug it into the camlock? I guess im going to have to pull my car all back apart and put the stock belts back in since itll be awhile before i get racing seats.

bleucamaro

Please do not use the belts configured as they are. Read this: http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/ Its a good whitepage including test data from crash testing, recomended routing ect. Its a must read!

Dr.Porsche

My understanding is that method is acceptable. I believe that there is a recommendation of how far behind the seat it should be. I am not sure if PCA Club race rules specify. They do say that each belt has to have its own mounting point. I believe that SCCA does not make this stipulation. Someone should be able to answer that here. If you need a number of someone to call, who would be able to answer for sure PM me and I will give it to you.

Dr.Porsche

Wonderfull LINK bleucamaro!!!

Also FYI, I know that Corbeau seat mounts have an option to retain the original seat belts. I use the originals to go to and fro from the track.

Geo

Actually, don't imagine anything. Just watch a sled test video and see how far the dummy comes out of the seat after being tightly strapped down. If that doesn't give you pause then there is something wrong. No belt is rigid in a crash.

Indeed. That also came out of Doc Melvin's testing. By controlling the pelvis better, you load the chest less. This is good because the bones in the pelvis are much larger and can handle much greater forces.

944Fest (aka Dan P)

From the Allegheney Region Tech form:

"Race style harnesses MUST have securely mounted support points for belts to keep them at or above occupant's shoulders (seat support alone not allowed). Cross-connector on race harness shoulder belts REQUIRED to hold belts on shoulders."

I'm a little dissapointed there appears to be a movement against sternum straps, seeing as I recently made an expensive upgrade to include them. It seems to me that Allegheney is requiring some form of them. I'm sure there are varied opinions about different designs, but I find it hard to believe a major safety advocate and manufacturer such as Simpson would sell a system incorperating sternum straps if they were unsafe. (especially after the Dale fiasco)

xsboost90

problem solved. Just ordered two of these w/ sub belt holes, mounting brakets and sub belt brakets from corbeau. SHould be here this week or monday.

Geo

Dan, check out this thread:

https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...sternum+straps

Gator_86_951

Indeed. However, that same logic could be used in any scenario. Meaning, "they certaintly wouldn't have designed X in light of Y" where X is the way they designed stuff before the Dale incident and Y is some other fatality.

Granted the magnitude is larger, but that doesn't necessarily obviate negligence in design and incorrect thinking. Sometimes people just get it wrong. I know how that works, I am an engineer. But, like you said there are probably lots and lots of opinions out there.

I think rennlist is great because it is a clearing house of a lot of information. That said, you just take it all in, and figure it out.

944Fest (aka Dan P)

This thread is just too over the top for me. I read the link, Geo. The part that stood out was "sternum strap shows potential to injure the neck". Yep, that is probably right. In some cases. What about the cases where it prevents shoulder straps from slipping off? There are hundreds of ways to test an impact on a car, are you saying there are NO situations where sternum straps are helpful?

My beef with you guys who require full cages, 7 point harnesses (???) race seats and HANS devices just for driver's ed is how ridiculous it all is. I'm amazed when people say you are better off in stock 3 point belts than in a harness. Ask the drummer who got his arm ripped off by a 3 point seat belt. I'm no engineer, but I'd rather have my body secured in a seat by 4 or more permanent wide straps than two 2" with slack. (Yes, I have John's rollbar) It is my self preservation instinct that likes to be bolted in. Sure, every fastening system will have it's naysayers, like "but what if you are in an overturned car" or "what if you are on fire and you can't see your quick release your arm restraint". Yes, this is a job for you engineers to debate, but I don't need a F1 restraint system in my street Porsche just because I'm running some laps at a driver's ed event.

Driving a car on the track involves risk. Calculated risk. I could buy another whole car for what some of you are suggesting we invest in safety equipment. I am a big fan of being safe, but isn't there a limit? Sure, Dan's setup invites the shoulders to slip off. I bet he just spent close to $800 to make them stay up. For those that won't get in a car without that crazy setup, maybe another hobby is more appropriate, such as quilting.

YES-Those of you in real race cars, go nuts with the gear. I would too if I were you. We are talking about autocross and an occasional DE here.

I'm sorry for my negativity, it just pisses me off when one region says you "NEED" this safety gear, and another claimed expert says "don't do it-you will die!" I just want to tell the 'experts' to go F*%$ off and strap in with whatever safety gear I feel is appropriate for the situation and live (or not) with the consequences.

Sorry-

docwyte

Hey, you can do whatever you want. Just don't expect me to get in the car with you. When I did the harnesses in my car, I did the rollbar and 5 point recaro speed seats at the same time. Why? Because running a 6 point harness without the proper mounting points is unbelievably STUPID. But hey, that's just me.